[TYPO3-hci] BE vs FE

[Waldemar Kornewald]

On 8/2/06, JoH <info at cybercraft.de> wrote:
> > That's not a real solution of the problem. You're just passing it to
> > the admin.
>
> It seems you don't want to understand, that there might be people who don't
> think restriction is the way to go.
> I prefer freedom of choice, which is such a completely different concept
> that we should stop the discussion about that specific issue here.

"Freedom of choice" sounds very nice, but it's not practical if you
want to have a *simple* interface. But you're right it doesn't make
any sense to discuss usability with you. You seem to think that
usability means having more features and customizability.

> So let me extract the essence of this last sentence:
> You are the only one who knows what is the best way to acchieve better
> usability and all the other TYPO3 users have to thank you for opening their
> eyes.

Oh, it seems that I can't open your eyes, so you don't have to thank me. ;))
Seriously, I'm not so ignorant (at least I hope so... :). All the
replies I got were similar to:

"No, we want multiple concepts in our system and we don't want to make
anything simpler because that would make it less powerful! Freedom of
choice! Make everyone happy! No matter what you suggest, we only
accept new features and more customizability!"

At least, that was my impression and I must admit that it made me a
little bit angry.
You did not even want to change the user concept even though it is
obviously possible to replace it with a simpler role-based model. You
won't lose anything if you do it, you just open up TYPO3 for community
websites and browsing access-controlled sites.

> Can you explain how it would improve TYPO3 usability for me if you take away
> all the concepts I prefer and force me to do it your way?

What about doing it in some new way which we can call "our" way?
Look, you always have to trade off between "features+customizability"
and "simplicity". You can't reach simplicity by adding more options
and more ways to do something. If you try to suit everyone you will of
course increase complexity.

Why do we not try to find one single concept which might force
everyone to adapt their habits, but which is still very powerful? I
don't have a problem with adapting my own habits as long as I see that
the new concept is simple (not overloaded, only one concept) and still
powerful. I mean, sometimes you have to try out new ideas. If we all
stayed with our habits we would stop innovating. TYPO3 does have a new
concept for me: records. I'm open to using TYPO3, but I don't agree
that hours of training for basic tasks are acceptable. We're not
talking about a space-shuttle! ;)

> In this case you are right:
> My primary interest is to give my client what he paid for.
> And I'm not "adding just another concept" but doing what he wants me to do.
> You will probably never see this concept, since it's too specialised to make
> it to the TER.
> So don't be afraid ... ;-)

I'm not afraid. I'd really like to know if your concept is more
generic and easier to use.

> > No, that's not true. I do expect that I'll have to learn a lot to
> > setup the website exactly the way we want. We'll need our own skin and
> > I'm developing a single-sign-on mechanism for Trac. I know that I'll
> > have to learn the system. What I don't want to accept is that I'll
> > have to train our developers, so they can create a simple news item or
> > even a page.

Why do you not agree with this?

> > I hope you're not seriously considering this a scientific analysis.
>
> No - but this is real life experience.
> I don't need any scientific blahblah as long as each of my clients is
> happily using one of those "bad BE concepts" without any problems.

People are using Linux and Windows and they don't complain, either.
Does that mean that those systems are perfect? No. It only means that
the users
* don't complain
* can't imagine something better
That's what usability people, researchers, and other experts are for.
Some things are too complex for end-users to improve.

> > Don't you see anything inherently wrong in having to train people?
>
> No - because this is one of the things that pay my bills ;-)

Yeah, that's the real point. It's the money and politics. Some people
would lose their jobs if TYPO3 didn't require training, anymore. Let's
make it more comlex, so more people can find work. ;)

> Maybe you should read this, if you don't want to pay for training:
> http://typo3.org/documentation/document-library/extension-manuals/ch_handbuch/current/ter_doc_sxw/?no_cache=1

Yes, I will read the manual (since I will be one of the admins).
But I don't like that our developers will have to read a manual, too.

Bye,
Waldemar Kornewald