[TYPO3-hci] BE vs FE

[JoH]

>>> That's not a real solution of the problem. You're just passing it to
>>> the admin.
>>
>> It seems you don't want to understand, that there might be people
>> who don't think restriction is the way to go.
>> I prefer freedom of choice, which is such a completely different
>> concept that we should stop the discussion about that specific issue
>> here.
>
> "Freedom of choice" sounds very nice, but it's not practical if you
> want to have a *simple* interface. But you're right it doesn't make
> any sense to discuss usability with you. You seem to think that
> usability means having more features and customizability.

Wrong! - Usability means "ease of use".
And since there is not "the one and only easy way" to do things it's a good
idea to have different concepts and let the user decide which one he finds
"easy".
So you can have your simple interface, while I can still use my power user
version.
The only thing that should be improved in this case, is the way you can
enable or disable those different concepts.
If this could be done with just one click on the appropriate system
extension, it would be the best usability you could get.

> Oh, it seems that I can't open your eyes, so you don't have to thank
> me. ;)) Seriously, I'm not so ignorant (at least I hope so... :). All
> the
> replies I got were similar to:
>
> "No, we want multiple concepts in our system and we don't want to make
> anything simpler because that would make it less powerful! Freedom of
> choice! Make everyone happy! No matter what you suggest, we only
> accept new features and more customizability!"

This is what you understood, but not what I have read in those replies.
Especially the part "we don't want to make anything simpler" is just your
personal interpretation.
Nobody said that. It's just the contrary: Of course we should (and could)
make things simpler. This is why this list has been created.
But if you want to kick all the other concepts in favour of just this new
one, this is no way to go.

>> Can you explain how it would improve TYPO3 usability for me if you
>> take away all the concepts I prefer and force me to do it your way?
>
> What about doing it in some new way which we can call "our" way?
> Look, you always have to trade off between "features+customizability"
> and "simplicity". You can't reach simplicity by adding more options
> and more ways to do something. If you try to suit everyone you will of
> course increase complexity.

No - I won't. At least not for the specific user, since nobody will use all
the possible concepts at once.
Everbody will be free to choose the way he prefers and after taking this
decision it will be as simple as can be to work with the system.

> Why do we not try to find one single concept which might force
> everyone to adapt their habits, but which is still very powerful? I
> don't have a problem with adapting my own habits as long as I see that
> the new concept is simple (not overloaded, only one concept) and still
> powerful. I mean, sometimes you have to try out new ideas. If we all
> stayed with our habits we would stop innovating. TYPO3 does have a new
> concept for me: records. I'm open to using TYPO3, but I don't agree
> that hours of training for basic tasks are acceptable. We're not
> talking about a space-shuttle! ;)

Well - I don't have a problem with adapting my habits too.
But I don't see a reason, why I should be forced to adapt my habits just
because you find my way of doing things too complicated.
If you think your approach is the better one, create an extension that does
exactly what you want, put it into the TER and see how many people will be
using it.
If it's really better, maybe I will use it too ...

>>> No, that's not true. I do expect that I'll have to learn a lot to
>>> setup the website exactly the way we want. We'll need our own skin
>>> and I'm developing a single-sign-on mechanism for Trac. I know that
>>> I'll have to learn the system. What I don't want to accept is that
>>> I'll have to train our developers, so they can create a simple news
>>> item or even a page.
>
> Why do you not agree with this?

Because there is nothing that can be done without training.

>> Maybe you should read this, if you don't want to pay for training:
>>
http://typo3.org/documentation/document-library/extension-manuals/ch_handbuch/current/ter_doc_sxw/?no_cache=1
>
> Yes, I will read the manual (since I will be one of the admins).
> But I don't like that our developers will have to read a manual, too.

This is definitely not for admins but for editors.
Somebody has to show them, how it works or they have to read this manual.
I know that many programmers think that manuals are for wimps, but usually
this is the way to go in real life.
Maybe they don't need hours of training, since your colleagues are more
experienced than the usual newbie editor, but if you refuse to invest at
least a small amount of time to learn something you have never done before,
you are definitely on the wrong track and it simply doesn't make sense to
discuss this any further.

Have a nice day

Joey

-- 
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