[TYPO3-hci] BE vs FE

[JoH]

>>> There has been lots of usability research on "offering multiple ways
>>> of doing something". It has been shown a long time ago that it's
>>> significantly easier for end-users to have only one way of doing it.
>>
>> So you as the admin should decide which way you want them to go.
>> No problem so far. Simply disable the features you don't want and
>> that's it.
>
> That's not a real solution of the problem. You're just passing it to
> the admin.

It seems you don't want to understand, that there might be people who don't
think restriction is the way to go.
I prefer freedom of choice, which is such a completely different concept
that we should stop the discussion about that specific issue here.

>> Well - you have different concepts to choose from. Why don't you
>> just take the one that seems to be fitting your needs best instead
>> of complaining about the others. You are not forced to use one
>> special concept, so you should not force other users to use the one
>> you prefer.
>
> Of course I could. But then you should better close this mailing list
> because it seems that nobody is really interested in improving TYPO3's
> usability.

So let me extract the essence of this last sentence:
You are the only one who knows what is the best way to acchieve better
usability and all the other TYPO3 users have to thank you for opening their
eyes.

Can you explain how it would improve TYPO3 usability for me if you take away
all the concepts I prefer and force me to do it your way?

>>> FE editing is indeed a nice concept and it's totally sufficient to
>>> have one easy to use BE editing concept for complex tasks and a very
>>> simple FE editing mode for simple tasks. But why do we need even
>>> more? That's what plugins are for.
>>
>> I don't think you got the point. A plugin in TYPO3 terms is a just a
>> different way of handling the output to the frontend. For the
>> backend you can create so called modules, and if you don't like the
>> way it is done in the page or list view, feel free to create your
>> own module to handle the backend stuff the way you want it.
>> Currently we are developing something for an end user with some
>> special tasks that can't be solved with either page or list view,
>> since the have to handle a lot of DB relations in just one view.
>
> And what results do you have? Could your new scheme possibly replace
> the old concept?
>
> You sound like you're going to add yet another concept which is only
> used by expert-power-users. What about those poor every-day users who
> only have to create very simple content? Should we forget them and
> only concentrate on adding new featuers to make every power-user
> happy? If you are really trying this your primary interest is not
> usability.

In this case you are right:
My primary interest is to give my client what he paid for.
And I'm not "adding just another concept" but doing what he wants me to do.
You will probably never see this concept, since it's too specialised to make
it to the TER.
So don't be afraid ... ;-)

>> Well - I guess with a bit of learning you will be able to create
>> simple web pages with most of them, the problem seems to be that you
>> are expecting to be able to handle a very complex system (and a CMS
>> will always be) just out of the box without having to learn
>> something - of course this won't work, as it won't work with any
>> other piece of software.
>
> No, that's not true. I do expect that I'll have to learn a lot to
> setup the website exactly the way we want. We'll need our own skin and
> I'm developing a single-sign-on mechanism for Trac. I know that I'll
> have to learn the system. What I don't want to accept is that I'll
> have to train our developers, so they can create a simple news item or
> even a page.
>
>> Well - the funny thing is, that I always talk with those newbies I've
>> trained about exactly the things you are complaining about.
>> I ask them if they can imagine there are people complaining about
>> the BE editing being too complicated.
>> Most of them simlpy can't understand, what should be so complicated
>> if they were able to learn how to edit pages, content and other
>> records within just a few hours.
>
> I hope you're not seriously considering this a scientific analysis.

No - but this is real life experience.
I don't need any scientific blahblah as long as each of my clients is
happily using one of those "bad BE concepts" without any problems.

>> Again: TYPO3 is not aimed to be a system that is used by end users
>> without any knowledge.
>> Usually it is setup by a professional who is responsible for
>> training and coaching too.
>> I don't know of any editor (speaking for our clients) who has not
>> been able to handle all the necessary stuff after a maximum of one
>> day of training.
>
> Don't you see anything inherently wrong in having to train people?

No - because this is one of the things that pay my bills ;-)

> It's okay for advanced tasks, but somehow it's ridiculous that you all
> insist on the current level of complexity which requires training even
> for simple tasks and at the same we're here to make TYPO3 easier to
> use...
>
> Does nobody apart from Tapio agree that simple every-day tasks should
> be doable without training?

Well - you can do it without training, but still it would be a good idea to
have a coach available showing you some tricks to improve your performance.

>> You don't need how-to's if you have been trained just a few hours by
>> an experienced coach.
>> Again: TYPO3 is not for end users without any experience and even if
>> you try to "simplify" the BE they would still need professional help
>> to setup their templates.
>
> You don't understand. Setting up a template is not an every-day task
> and the average editor does not need to do this. I'd like to simplify
> the BE, so editors don't need hours of training. A brief intro "we
> have pages, items like news posts or users which are in the list view,
> and pages consist of multiple records of different types like text or
> form". That should get you started.

Maybe you should read this, if you don't want to pay for training:
http://typo3.org/documentation/document-library/extension-manuals/ch_handbuch/current/ter_doc_sxw/?no_cache=1

HTH

Joey

-- 
Wenn man keine Ahnung hat: Einfach mal Fresse halten!
(If you have no clues: simply shut your knob sometimes!)
Dieter Nuhr, German comedian
openBC: http://www.cybercraft.de
T3 cookbook: http://www.typo3experts.com