[TYPO3-english] TYPO3 6.0 at the corner? How is it possible

Mathias Bolt Lesniak, LiliO Design mathias at lilio.com
Mon Mar 5 23:07:27 CET 2012

Hi Oliver!

Thanks for your in-depth reply. :-)

On 5. mars 2012, at 19:14, Oliver Hader wrote:

> Hi Mathias,
> thanks for your feedback on this hot topic. First of all, this is an
> individual post - just me. Trust me, the decision of mentioning a number
> like "6.0" was not easy and took a lot of hours and days to think about.
> However it's strange to read (as a general feedback from all responses)
> that there is a demand for a CTO/CEO that steers TYPO3, but on the other
> hand the demand for more democratic decision. Well, I don't think one
> single person can act democratic for all thoughts and requirements. The
> thing we have now is a compromise between a one-man-show and discussing
> everything with everybody and never coming to an end.

I'm with you here. I'm not necessarily promoting more democracy, but more transparency. As you're basically saying: Too much democracy makes difficult decisions even harder, and I'm willing to go with compromises in order to have predictability.

> However, now that the information is spread, it's required to listen,
> but also to stay constructive and to not mix up things. The "6.0" is
> basically about chances for the product you currently know as TYPO3 v4,
> it's not about "THE Association", not about the "waste of money", not
> about expectations and not about being disappointed by waiting longer
> for Phoenix/5.0...

Again, I agree with you. I don't think the T3A is wasting money. It's true that I would like to see more focus on typo3.com (to mention one), but it doesn't mean FLOW3 is a waste.

We're a small agency, and directing clients to typo3.com used to be a good way of convincing them that TYPO3 was solid, predictable, etc. Right now the most recent news is about TYPO3 4.5, whilst I may be talking about soon installing 4.7. Changing around on the versions makes things even harder to explain.

> Am 05.03.12 17:25, schrieb Mathias Bolt Lesniak, LiliO Design:
>> This seems to be reflected in the communication too: Decisions must be clearly communicated. As others have mentioned, Robert's blog is not the place for that kind of communication, but it's not only Robert's task to make sure the information gets out.
>> Xavier's reply to Milicev's e-mail another place in this thread is symptomatic of a different kind of issue:
>>    Question: "How to explain to the 62 year old guy, director of the board, where v5 vaporized"
>>    Answer: "Just point him to the articles..."
>> Sorry, but that's plain disrespectful! No TYPO3 agency is going to live long if it just asks the clients to read these kind of articles. TYPO3 is there not ultimately for the agencies, but for their clients. With Xavier's attitude, TYPO3 will die: Agencies won't be able to sell the product, no matter how good it is.
> Sorry, but this does not help. Taking exactly one line out of the
> context to blame a very active member of the TYPO3 community looks very
> unfair to me. Maybe you have a general problem with the TYPO3
> Association and the fact how decisions have been made in the past, now
> or maybe in the future - but using Xavier as a symptomatic example that
> fit's your personal picture and create a generalization of "the evil" is
> just awkward!
> Here's the full context again:
> | Milicev: And I already made ton's of offers for
> | clients, covering v5 support.
> | Xavier: That's really interesting :)
> | Milicev: Now what? How to explain to the 62 year old guy, director of
> | the board, where v5 vaporized
> | Xavier: Just point him to the articles...
> Did you realize the smiley in the first section? For me (personally) it
> looks strange that somebody already sells service level agreements on
> Phoenix/5.0 at a time when it was not finally released, yet... I think
> that's kind of funny, don't you?

To be clear about this: My intention was not to attack Xavier's person, but to make what I felt was a valid example. I didn't understand that it was meant as a joke from his side. I am sincerely sorry for all hurt feelings. I have nothing against neither him nor the T3A, and have respect for both. :-)

Now, please read this as written, with the best of intentions: 

Actually. I've made the same "mistake". Not exactly the same, but close enough. We have been waiting for Phoenix/5.0 for a while. Based on the information I got, I believed FLOW3 would reach beta long before it actually did. Making project forecasts and long-term plans I calculated FLOW3 into projects where I in the end couldn't use it because it was delayed. It didn't cause large problems, but it's not something I regard as funny. Sad, maybe?

I thought Xavier didn't answer the question in a helpful way. I don't think you made it better by saying you think the issue is funny. Since I was writing about improving communication, I felt it made a point. I feel everyone should be allowed to make mistakes, speak their mind and be taken seriously. I'm sorry, but this all didn't make me feel the concerns voiced are taken as seriously as they should. - Even though the decision has been made. :-)

Now, I guess, I have criticized another very active member of the TYPO3 community, but that is not because I am trying to generalize evil, ignore the work they've done or give unfair blame. I'm simply asking people to take a step back and look at this from the outsider's perspective. :-)

>>    - A clear five year plan is needed for all TYPO3 related projects.
> A roadmap is required, that's true - but not a clear and detailed five
> year plan. Five years back from now, nobody used iPhones - but think
> about how that changed the live of content delivery. So, a roadmap needs
> to state a common vision but also needs to be flexible...

Yup. I guess the real issue is that plans have been overly optimistic. For planning I'd rather like to be surprised by an early release than dissapointed about milestones pushed into the future. B-)

>>    - Phoenix must also be called TYPO3, or people will think it's two different things.
> Why not? TYPO3 [SomeNewName] 1.0, and "TYPO3" being a maker brand...
> whatever [SomeNewName] will be, it's sure that the root was and is based
> in TYPO3.

"TYPO3 [SomeNewName] 1.0" is ok for me.

From a client perspective, though, I think TYPO3 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9... is easier to comprehend.

>>    - Version numbers should continue straight into Phoenix. (No Phoenix 1.0, please.)
> That's exactly the point of expectations... if you expect that TYPO3 4.7
> can directly be upgraded to Phoenix/5.0 - than this is wrong.
> Phoenix/5.0 was written from scratch and this is know for a long time
> already. Thus, your extensions like tt_news won't work anymore with
> Phoenix/5.0 - you can work with the new paradigms like MVC in
> Extbase/Fluid, you can migrate some of the contents and your domain
> models. But that's it...

I don't expect the compatibility to be 100% (or 50%), but it's easier to sell a move from 4 to 5 than from 4 to 1.

None of the extensions worked any more when I moved from Mac OS 9 to 10. ;-)

>>    - Like from Mac OS 9 to Mac OS X the switch to Phoenix should be the next natural step, and maintaining both cores should only be done for a finite number of years.
> Well, since Phoenix/5.0 is not finally released yet and since there are
> not that many packages (extensions) available as for the current TYPO3
> v4, it might be difficult to plan the end of v4. The Berlin Manifesto
> already stated that v4 and Phoenix/5.0 (take the technology behind each,
> not the name tags) will live side-by-side for some time.
> I guess, the product you currently earn money with, is TYPO3 v4 - and I
> assume that you'd be quite shocked if you would hear something like
> "TYPO3 v4 dies in 2013 or 2014" - good that this is not the case.
> However, if the acceptance and feature-set for Phoenix/5.0 exceeds v4
> it's time to think about this topic again...

I guess my main concern is that development of v4 doesn't slow down the development of Phoenix.

I expect TYPO3 v4 to be able to run for years after it's active development has ended. If development ends in 2015, I guess I'd be running some installs until 2020.

>>    - Resources should be spent on making TYPO3 look better from the outside. (More money to PR)
>>    - Although TYPO3 is "free" I'm not against paying a voluntary fee per site to sponsor TYPO3 development and PR, as long as projects don't linger in development for ever (so I can show clients what they pay for).
> I'm just picking your "so I can show clients what they pay for"... I not
> all of your clients are member of the TYPO3 Association and in general
> they pay you for your knowledge and services, don't they? Putting a
> license fee on a product is somehow against the principles of TYPO3 and
> being a community driven project...

Well, I didn't say "license fee" just "fee". B-)

This is seriously meant, tough. I believe it would be beneficial for TYPO3 if more people had a form of renumeration for their immense work. Example donation amounts is another way to do it.

Best wishes

Mathias Bolt Lesniak
LiliO - www.lilio.no
mathias at lilio.com

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