[TYPO3-mvc] TYPO3-Core complete rebuild to realize modern development paradigms?

Thu Aug 29 08:56:42 CEST 2013

Hello Christoph,

well you may be partly right. But in fact TYPO3 is such successfull, 
right because it is Open-Source and developers/companies was able for a 
long time to do their work for a good, but suiteable budget. And don't 
forget there are also a lot of developers (some also paid/sponsored by 
companies) to spent some of their time to build and provide Extensions 
or Bugfixes to the TYPO3-Community.

We are also developers and (for me personally) I'm also the CEO of our 
TYPO3 Agency offering solutions on TYPO3 basis for our customers. So I 
think I am partly able to distinct the needs of our customers and those 
of developers.

Of course customers have the need for something build or developed up on 
TYPO3 and they have a fixed budget for that tasks to be done. The last 
month we noticed that it get's more and more complex to fullfill those 
tasks offered in the best quality and for the budget provided by our 
customers. One point are accidently up-coming bugs that make it hard to 
solve, sometimes even for real banal things.

And the other problems are (in my opinion) caused by the new Plugin-Base 
"Extbase" and "Fluid" (Templating). Both of them have been startet to be 
ported/build when their parent project "FLOW" was in the very early 
stages of development. I don't want to blame the developers work they 
have partly done really great. But because their work has become part of 
the Core most developers have started using this "new platform" for 
TYPO3-Development in best hope in it.

We were badly disappointed developing with Extbase and Fluid, because in 
fact even some very banal things don't work as expected or have been 
"dropped" compared to f.e. usual MySQL Queries. It's a nice thing - but 
making it a core-component in this state of development was a big fault. 
It should have been installable optionally. Developing this way takes a 
lot more time and budget than calculated on basis of our current project 
experiences.

Of course there have to be breaking changes. I don't blame the 
TYPO3-Community for saying there are things that are untouchable because 
of the possible lack of compatibility. But on the other hand the new 
approach "NEOS" won't be production ready for "real live" projects for 
years (my opinion). And currently it does not really build a compareable 
solution for TYPO3. So there's something missing between TYPO3 6.x and 
NEOS that provides a solid TYPO3 we know, but that also is able to do 
some breaking changes in the Core.

So if TYPO3 doesn't meet the developer's needs, the developers are not 
able to satisfy their customers in the time needs and budget paid by the 
customers. If those Developers went unsatisfied, the TYPO3-Community 
will loose member-power, developers, bugfixers and may be sometimes some 
of the well known bigger sponsors mentioned on TYPO3.org.

PS:
We have currently a look on TYPO3 Catharsis (a TYPO3 6.x fork; 
https://github.com/lolli42/TYPO3.CMS-Catharsis) and get in touch with 
the fork-developers team. If anything fails and we can't find a consense 
with them - we are thinking about our own roadmap for a additional TYPO3 
tree trying to satisfy the needs mentioned above either with or without 
support of the wide (breaking) TYPO3-Community.

You are welcome to let me know if may be interested to enter there.

Best regards
Gabriel

Am 22.08.2013 11:21, schrieb Christoph Werner:
> Hi all!
>
> Two points to think about:
>
> 1.) Most customers dont care about a nice codebase. They want to buy a
> system, which has to work and which they can use over an long period.
> The need of "normal" updates is sometimes hard to explain to a customer,
> breaking changes will be really hard, because there is just a small
> profit for the customer, but in some cases a lot of costs.
> Breaking changes have to be done, thats right, but sometimes a slow
> contineous development is the better way. Other CMS dont look a
> backwards compatibility so much, I think its one the strong point TYPO3 has.
> Everyone who had to communicate the costs of a breaking changes update
> to a non tech customer (which sees no real profit, but maybe a lot of
> costs) know thats a not a good thing.
>
> 2.) The TYPO3-Community should not be split in to many building lots.
> That would split the capacities and its even hard right now to explain a
> none TYPO3-enthusiast why there are that many versions parallel (4.5,
> 6.x, Neos...).
>
> In the end, the enduser pays for our work, so we need to find solutions
> to fit their needs and not just focus on developer issurs.
>
> Just my 2 cents...
>
> Best Regards
> Christoph
>
>
>
>
> Am 12.08.2013 20:16, schrieb chris Wolff:> Just to Make it Clear:
>> the v4 version in the berlin Manifesto Refers to TYPO3 CMS 4.x, 6.x ....
>> and v5 Refers to what is now Know as TYPO3 Neos
>>
>> regeards chris
>>
>> 2013/8/12 Philipp Gampe <philipp.gampe at typo3.org>:
>>> Hi Gabriel,
>>>
>>> Gabriel Kaufmann | Typoworx wrote:
>>>
>>>> We are developers also trying to provide patches and bugfixes for
>>>> TYPO3-Core and came to the idea, that some parts of TYPO3-Core are just
>>>> too much got stucked in it's current code-concept.
>>> Others already answered to your questions, but I want to add
> something for
>>> clarification: the vision
>>>
>>> We - the active contributor, thus the active devs - are well aware of the
>>> current limitations and the technological deeps of the current TYPO3 CMS
>>> core.
>>> That means that we will not change or rewrite TCEmain or TCEforms. That
>>> would break to much.
>>> Also we will try to create an easy transition for extensions, meaning we
>>> will only break stuff if the core can be replaced with little work.
>>> Of course we are not bound to this, but that can be seen as the main
> idea.
>>> For the new concepts and the radical rewritten approaches, we have Flow
>>> (Framework) and Neos (CMS).
>>>
>>> We will try to converge CMS with Flow/Neos further and further, see also
>>> Berlino Manifesto:
>>> http://typo3.org/roadmap/berlin-manifesto/
>>> (TYPO3 v5 is the code name of TYPO3 Flow/Neos)
>>>
>>> We hope that we can arrange an integration of Flow and CMS in TYPO3
> 7.0 (in
>>> about a year), but we are not sure if this will work out.
>>> The idea is, that you can use any Flow package (including Neos)
> alongside of
>>> CMS. Then you can write your custom code with Flow, but still use CMS for
>>> the parts that you need - getting the best of both worlds. But this
> is still
>>> far future.
>>>
>>> Nevertheless, we will try to implement (composer) package support in
> TYPO3
>>> CMS 6.2 LTS (most likely without graphical management tool). That
> would mean
>>> that you could use any composer lib inside CMS 6.2 (e.g. doctrine).
>>>
>>> And of course we will continue to cleanup the backend and to rewrite
> some of
>>> the modules to extbase/fluid.
>>>
>>> The vision document has not been published as far as I know, but you can
>>> read the main points in the protocols of the active contributor meetups
>>> (ACME).
>>>
>>> I really suggest that you take a look at Flow, because I really think
> that
>>> you will find there what you want :)
>>>
>>> http://flow.typo3.org/
>>>
>>> Best regards
>>> --
>>> Philipp Gampe -- PGP-Key 0AD96065 -- TYPO3 UG Bonn/Köln
>>> Documentation -- Active contributor TYPO3 CMS
>>> TYPO3 .... inspiring people to share!
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> TYPO3-project-typo3v4mvc at lists.typo3.org
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>>
>