[TYPO3-hci] BE vs FE

[Tapio Markula]

Waldemar Kornewald wrote:

> Plone:
> The "add new item" function is easy to find: at the top and visually
> separated from less important functions.

If you mean content elements, that is fixed in tm_contentaccess
and in the alternative page module 'TemplaVoila' - in fact
I have taken the order from TemplaVoila.

> TYPO3:
> Despite its importance for creating (e.g.) news items, the "Create new
> record"

could be another position.

> shortcut to page" and "Advanced Functions" such that some users might
> not even notice its existance.

In fact I have commonly disabled them from normal users. Not important 
at all in the view.

> Also, record creation requires one additional page reload (compared to
> Plone) although the creation dialog does not contain more information

If you create a new page, it is *reasonable* to have an extra page. It 
is *extremely silly*, if CMS puts new page always after existing page - 
or even worse as sub-page. Read my comments to this issue.

'New' - options for page
- inside - as a sub-page
- after existing page
- wizard

all of them are reasonable. For example if you have edited
page, which is 5th in the menu and you want new page
to be 4th in the menu then wizard is the best choise.

Endeed in many situations the fastest way to create a new page is to use 
the page tree an just drag'n drop an existing page to new destination,
relelease mouse button and choose 'Copy inside' (as sub-page'
or 'Copy after'.

The simplest model is *not* the most reasonable.

> After having created an initial news item (or note or ...) a new
> section in the Page view appears.
typo offers freedom to define where to store news.
News can be colleted from
1) page, where the plugin is,
2) page, where the plugin is + sub-pages of the current page (levels can 
be define)
3) from free selection of pages (sub-page level setting concerns then 
all selected pages).

That is *extremely* reasonable. Again the simplest model is not the
the most *reasonable' in long term.

> * This section does not offer a quick-add button for news.

Just because news can be in any page.
News plugin basically just plugin for *showing* news with different way 
- not creating them.

Of cource it could have also a link to create new news items.
Some plugin have +-sign indicating creation of new related items.
If the it is *always* necessary to show the page tree where to put new 
items.

- in long term very reasonable.
In short term the simplest system might look nice, but in the long
term it might become extremely annoying to use because of limitations.

> Here is an improved interface:
> http://t3test.xetpoint.com/media/development/backendediting6.png
> If the "Add Content" button were exactly in the middle between two
> records the insertion position would be even more obvious.

In fact TemplaVoila does the same - but it doesn't have Text with icons.
But there are just few people who are interested to develop the standard 
page module. Bernhard Kraft is another person excluding me, who has 
really improved the standard page module - other don't have bothered 
themselves trying to improve it.

> In Plone, you don't have to enter the date, your name, and email in
> every item because that data has default values (date=now,
> name+email=you).

where it gets you name - news has no relation to user list.
Maybe possible if you make the relation.

of course date could be set automatic.
In typo3 you need commonly just click checkbox and you get the date/time
- not difficult but could be fully automatic.

  Of course, you can change those values by going to
> the "Properties" tab. What about using the same approach in TYPO3 and
> just move less important fields into an extra tab (many CMSes do it
> that way)?

it is matter of the plugin developer - he can choose if he want to use 
tabs. In fact tt_news use tabs!
I don't understand you now - tt_news use tabs and you complain that
plugins don't use tabs???

> You forgot that it also changes the way you switch a page's view mode
> (if I understood the mockup correctly). It's important that actions
> are placed at the location where something will happen. TYPO3's
> buttons for Web views (Page, View, List, etc.) are misplaced in that
> they don't indicate which column will be reloaded. Don't you think it
> would be better if those buttons were moved to the right column, so
> they behave like tabs for switching the view mode?

IMO Mambo-style Top menu would be best - it will be supported in future.