[TYPO3-hci] BE vs FE

[JoH]

>> Well - this simply shows that you didn't get the overall concept of
>> TYPO3 at all.
>> One of the major advantages is that there always are at least 2
>> (sometimes 3 or 4) different concepts to choose from.
>> This way we can make sure that everybody can find his personal way
>> of doing things as comfortably as possible.
>
> There has been lots of usability research on "offering multiple ways
> of doing something". It has been shown a long time ago that it's
> significantly easier for end-users to have only one way of doing it.

So you as the admin should decide which way you want them to go.
No problem so far. Simply disable the features you don't want and that's it.

>> Something that looks "ridiculously complicated" for you might be the
>> way to go for other people with a different mentality.
>
> Very often people just don't want to change their habits and thus
> request more features and concepts because they are too lazy to learn
> something different even if the other concept is more (or equally)
> effective.
> Unfortunately, the open-source mentality is to never say "NO" to less
> features and always say "YES" to more features. Developers design
> software for themselves, not for end-users.

Well - you have different concepts to choose from. Why don't you just take
the one that seems to be fitting your needs best instead of complaining
about the others. You are not forced to use one special concept, so you
should not force other users to use the one you prefer.

>> Some people prefer the "Web->Page" view when editing content, others
>> really like the "Web->List" view again others are working with FE
>> editing only. It all depends on their personal background and skills.
>
> FE editing is indeed a nice concept and it's totally sufficient to
> have one easy to use BE editing concept for complex tasks and a very
> simple FE editing mode for simple tasks. But why do we need even more?
> That's what plugins are for.

I don't think you got the point. A plugin in TYPO3 terms is a just a
different way of handling the output to the frontend. For the backend you
can create so called modules, and if you don't like the way it is done in
the page or list view, feel free to create your own module to handle the
backend stuff the way you want it. Currently we are developing something for
an end user with some special tasks that can't be solved with either page or
list view, since the have to handle a lot of DB relations in just one view.

>> I've followed this thread for a while now and IMHO it sounds a bit
>> overconfident if someone who is just looking for a new CMS but never
>> really used it is writing stuff like:
>> "Ridiculously complicated" -> How does it come that none of the
>> newbie editors I have trained ever complained about this?
>
> I'm sorry that I sound like that. I'm just getting the impression that
> the majority of you guys thinks I'm totally stupid with my ideas of a
> simpler interface. That's frustrating. Especially, since 99% of the
> CMSes violate very basic usability concepts and our project got very
> frustrated with trying out >50 CMSes just to realize that nearly all
> of them are so complicated that you can't even create a simple web
> page...It's not just me who thinks that way.

Well - I guess with a bit of learning you will be able to create simple web
pages with most of them, the problem seems to be that you are expecting to
be able to handle a very complex system (and a CMS will always be) just out
of the box without having to learn something - of course this won't work, as
it won't work with any other piece of software.

> End-users often don't complain. They just use that software and get
> angry if something doesn't work. Mostly tech-savvy people (or geeks)
> get in contact with development teams. Why? That's because normal
> users don't care about computers so much. They just use them because
> they have to. OTOH, for us computers are hobbies. That's why mostly
> tech-savvy people post suggestions (which are nearly never indented
> for end-users...).

Well - the funny thing is, that I always talk with those newbies I've
trained about exactly the things you are complaining about.
I ask them if they can imagine there are people complaining about the BE
editing being too complicated.
Most of them simlpy can't understand, what should be so complicated if they
were able to learn how to edit pages, content and other records within just
a few hours.

> But the main problem with what you say is:
>> newbie editors I have trained
> Do you think those editor would have been able to do anything without
> your training? Somehow this doesn't speak for Typo3's usability.
> Once you can train someone you have eliminated a lot of problems. The
> point is that the CMS should be usable *without training*.

Again: TYPO3 is not aimed to be a system that is used by end users without
any knowledge.
Usually it is setup by a professional who is responsible for training and
coaching too.
I don't know of any editor (speaking for our clients) who has not been able
to handle all the necessary stuff after a maximum of one day of training.

> Sorry if I sound too confident again. I want to make Typo3 easier to
> use and I read that for V4.5 you planned a major overhaul. Now, I'm
> here with my suggestions and nobody wants to change *anything*. All I
> see is that a few expert-concepts and minor changes are being
> discussed. I wouldn't be surprised if V4.5 would look nearly the same
> as V4...
> So, do you want to change and try out new concepts or should I shut up
> because nobody is interested in change, anyway?

Well - AFAIK the goal for 4.5 is to improve things but not to radically
change or completely remove them. TYPO3 already got one of the best Backend
concepts I have ever seen but there are still things you could do better.

>> "Separating FE and BE users is a bad concept" -> How can you know if
>> you didn't even get what they are for (Website Visitors vs. Website
>> Editors)?
>
> * Visitors and editors are both *users*.

Well - in fact visitors are clients, while editors are employees.
Most companies I know of have got a main entrance where anybody is allowed
to enter and another one that can be used by employees only. To make sure
that normal clients don't enter areas they are not allowed to see I think
it's a good idea to have completely different security systems.

> * Nearly all CMSes don't make such a distinction and there are no
> problems.

Well - TYPO3 makes such a distinction and there are no problems too. ;-)

> * What is the advantage of having them separate? I still haven't seen
> a good reason.

There are 3:
Security, security and security.

> * It is less flexible because as BE user can't login to the FE and FE
> users can't be *easily* granted access to the BE (e.g.: because they
> joined the development team).

Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. There are several extensions that can
login FE users with a corresponding BE user when necessary. A BE user
doesn't have to login to the FE since he can always see previews of the
pages he is creating while being logged in to the BE.

>> Compare it to you car's cockpit. Usually it is a black board with a
>> lot of different lights behind it, that you can't see as long as you
>> don't turn the key. But when you turn the key for the first time,
>> all the different lights will flash at least once to show you they
>> are available and working. Imagine how surprised you would be if you
>> had to find out by accident, that there is a light that shows you
>> are running out of fuel and you don't have to go and check the fill
>> level of your tank manually.
>
> Isn't this somewhat far-fetched? These are status indicators and they
> don't nag you the whole time while you're driving.

True - if you're a driver (editor).
But if you are Flavio Briatore (admin) you surely want to control them all
on your supervising monitors.
Depending on the drivers preferences they will be enabled or disabled
exactly the way he wants them to be. So it's up to the admin to ask his
editors how they want to handle the stuff in the BE and create the look and
feel they expect.

>> Same reason for the BE: If you install TYPO3 the first time it
>> offers you all the available options. It's up to you to decide if
>> you need them or not and if you want to turn off the stuff you find
>> unnecessary.
>
> Referring to your car example: Do you have to manually disable all
> those status indicators?

Of course, if I don't like them and find them unnecessary and disturbing.
Example: If you buy a new car you are forced to live with the built in
antilock brake system, even though it is well known that the braking
distance will be longer if the streets aren't wet. So if you are an
experienced driver knowing how to handle a car with blocked wheels you will
have to disable it manually.

> Seriously, do you really think that an end-user who doesn't know the
> system can solve a simple task relatively quickly? At least, our team
> (even our programmers!!!) can't and I will have to give a quick intro
> and write how-tos for even very simple tasks...
> As soon as you leave people alone with Typo3 and don't train them the
> situation changes radically! You might argument that Typo3 is not
> indended for normal users, but don't you agree that there are many
> users who only have to create simple textual content and that the UI
> should make this as straight-forward as possible, so nobody has to
> read how-tos?

You don't need how-to's if you have been trained just a few hours by an
experienced coach.
Again: TYPO3 is not for end users without any experience and even if you try
to "simplify" the BE they would still need professional help to setup their
templates.

>> You can use an extension for this purpose (I have to admit that this
>> is not a real "extension" but more a "modification") or you can
>> simply setup different BE views for your BE usergroups.
>
> I will probably setup different views and also install the extension,
> but that is just a workaround for the actual problem.

No, since there is no problem with that.
It's just the way things are done in TYPO3.
You can have the fully blown power user BE as well as the streamlined
version for the unexperienced editor. It's just a matter of the proper
configuration and usually this can be done with just a few clicks.

>> Since the first login will always be an admin login it seems logical
>> to me that you don't get a restricted view. This is something for
>> simple editors and it can be acchieved very easily
>
> Okay, there is some truth to it, but would it not be nice to have a
> very simple method to create a simplified view for the other users?

Create your "simplified view extension", install it - done.
This has to be done just once, so maybe this is something for the 4.5
roadmap. AFAIK this has already been discussed in this list and we agreed it
could be helpful if someone could create this extension to make it easier
for lazy admins to have the streamlined BE view.

>> If you are just a simple editor and don't want to see the whole
>> admin stuff it doesn't matter anyway since you will have to ask for
>> professional support that will setup the "streamlined" BE view for
>> you and do at least the necessary templating.
>
> Of course it does the job, but that's not very effective and requires
> more work than I'd wish...

Well - you already got the rest of the system for free. Maybe the thousands
of mandays that already have been donated by others are worth a few hours of
your work to create such an extension.

>> TYPO3 is no out-of-the-box-solution for end users but a framework for
>> professionals that will create such a solution for the end users out
>> of it. If it is looking too complictaed for you, maybe it's just
>> because you are more like an end user who needs the help of such a
>> professional.
>
> We don't have professionals who can help. We're an open-source project
> and we want to setup a new website with a powerful CMS (multi-lingual,
> ACLs, etc.).

So you have got 3 options:
1) Try to learn the necessary stuff and do it on your own (and maybe you can
contribute your simplification-extensions)
2) Try to find some helpful people that will do the job for free
3) Wait until you find a better CMS or until someone created the necessary
extension.

>> Wenn man keine Ahnung hat: Einfach mal Fresse halten!
>
> Warum so aggressiv? :))

Weil das meine Standardsignatur ist, mein Freund ;-)

Joey

-- 
Wenn man keine Ahnung hat: Einfach mal Fresse halten!
(If you have no clues: simply shut your knob sometimes!)
Dieter Nuhr, German comedian
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