[TYPO3-ect] Improving communication between ECT and Core team (was: Re: Re: [TYPO3-core] Wishlist from ECT)

[Steffen Kamper]

Hi Michael,

as you directly addressed this to Elmar, no one fell to answer (except Elmar 
:-) )

I think that most of the interst devs read both lists, and some themes has 
to be discussed in both lists, as you see atm with the caching thread. 
Sometimes it would be nice if the extract of the discussions would be 
catched in a summary in any article on typo3.org. But this is not easy, 
except there is a concrete conclusion.

I don't worry about communication between all of us. I also think that 
anybody here read your thread.

vg  Steffen

"Michael Stucki" <michael at typo3.org> schrieb im Newsbeitrag 
news:mailman.1.1175506581.24183.typo3-team-extension-coordination at lists.netfielders.de...
> Did anybody ever read this? No other opinions, or pure enthusiasm?
>
> - michael
>
> Michael Stucki wrote:
>
>> Hi Elmar,
>>
>> I just read some parts of this discussion and would like to add some
>> comments about it.
>>
>> I wonder why your are complaining in this list that the communication 
>> with
>> the core team does not work, waiting until someone accidentially finds
>> this message and gets a chance to start improving this.
>>
>> Both Core Team and ECT belong to the R&D committee, which you are a 
>> member
>> of. I wonder why you didn't post this information there or at least send
>> it to me directly? (Thanks to Joerg Schoppet who did so - unfortunately 
>> he
>> didn't respond to my comments yet.)
>>
>> Anyway, here's my try to get back to a common track:
>>
>> Note: Actually I didn't follow the original typo3/contrib/ discussion at
>> all, and I don't want to start it over right now. I just would like to 
>> get
>> some input about how you think we can improve communication between those
>> teams in general.
>>
>>
>> First of all, I think that there should not have been any discussion 
>> about
>> the typo3/contrib/ suggestion (and stuff like this) on the core team 
>> list.
>> My original idea of this list was pretty simple: Provide a place for
>> submitting patches, and for getting them reviewed. Discussions should be
>> kept short, and only relating to the proposed code changes. This also
>> explains why the list is closed: Only people who can actually commit
>> something are able to propose their changes.
>>
>>
>> Now when it comes to stuff that affects the architecture of TYPO3 (e.g.
>> this contrib directory, or the past AJAX framework decision) this might 
>> be
>> fine in some cases as well. However, since there were complaints coming
>> from this team, we should find a better way to discuss this and make a
>> decision.
>>
>> Although the ECT seems to be a better (because public) place for
>> discussions like this, it also scares me to support this idea. Looking at
>> the length and style of some discussions held in here, I really doubt if
>> people are willing to spend so much time and efforts for participating in
>> such a discussion. Why should many people participate in a discussion,
>> when it would have been easy for a working group to compile all
>> information (including pros and cons) into a single document.
>>
>> My suggestion is that next time we are in such a situation, someone 
>> (we'll
>> need a moderator for this) has to start a Wiki document, which can be
>> announced on dev, core and ect lists. We will wait two weeks while
>> everyone can post his thoughts and comments, explain why XY is better 
>> than
>> XZ, etc.
>>
>> Finally, a vote will be organised by the moderator, directly followed by
>> the implementation in TYPO3core.
>>
>> (Prerequisite: If it is about code changes, then these changes must be
>> available as a patch. Otherwise it appears logical to me that those who
>> implement it can also decide how they want to do it...)
>>
>>
>> So, what dou you think about that?
>>
>> - michael
>>
>> Elmar Hinz wrote:
>>> the request was not an empty directory, but rather an include path for
>>> PEAR that extension developers can rely on. Maybe that was a little
>>> unclear. But if core members would read this list, that would know this.
>>> Do you really think extension developers that simple-minded to request 
>>> an
>>> empty directory without any deeper motivation.
>>>
>>> As we from ECT can't technically write on the core list, it is the
>>> logical consequence that the members of the core list need to inform
>>> themself on the ECT list. They also have the technical possibility to
>>> write on this list and ask for informations before making harum scarum
>>> decisions, due to lack of informations and they know they should do so.
>>>
>>> If the core list is a closed list, this is to protect the core team
>>> from all those people who only do feature requests without contributing
>>> anything. That is OK so far. The danger with this is, that it encourages
>>> encapsulation and ignorance. If a mentality is creeping up that leads to
>>> this kind of ignorance towards requests of other active members of the
>>> community it is time to rant.
>>
>
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