[TYPO3-core] RFC: #15573: Disable deprecation log in config_default

[Ernesto Baschny [cron IT]]

Dmitry Dulepov schrieb am 31.08.2010 13:49:

> Ernesto Baschny [cron IT] wrote:
>> Hi Dmitry, thanks for re-initiating the discussion, but it was already
>> agreed that:
>>
>> - deprecation log is important also in production, as you are made aware
>> of stuff that might break on further upgrades. This is as important to
>> developers as to admins that only have the job to "upgrade the site".
> 
> Ernesto, you work in a TYPO3 company. Answer me truly, please: how often do
> people in your company look into the deprecation log? This answer will
> clarify a lot ;)

Nobody ever stumbled over this problem, because until now we never
removed deprecated functions from the core. We will start doing so, and
the preparation to be able to do so was done with the deprecation log
with the release of 4.3.

In my company we already did solve solve issues with extensions just by
seeing that log file grow after an update, and becoming aware of the
fact that some extensions are using "old functions" that will be removed
later. It turns out that fixing one or two issues made our extensions
"compatible" with the next 2 versions again. I would have never looked
at that extensions again if it wasn't for that active log.

On our servers we have a logrotate daemon rotating and archiving the
deprecation log. This works for us, but of course I would love to see
the core providing such functionality in environments where the admin is
not able to do that.

>> - deprecation log is the only meaningful way to *really* remove stuff
>> two versions after it was announced, as nobody can then come and say "oh
>> sh*, nobody told me this was going to break!!".

> How exactly do you use for removing functions? How often do you personally
> examine this log? I can tell for myself: never. And I am coding for TYPO3
> at least 32 hours a week.

As soon as me or one of my collegues upgrade some site from <4.3 to 4.3
or 4.4 and I start seeing the deprecation log grow, I know that we have
to do something (inform the customer, fix the problem ourselves, upgrade
some third party extension).

>> - so we won't change the default setting to "0" even on production
>> sites, because that logging makes even more sense on production.

> I disagree. As far as I know, big companies turn it off immediately in
> their internal TYPO3 versions. Smaller companies and freelancers are simply
> unaware of the this log and has no use for it. Therefore they got more and
> more space lost for nothing.

Those are two cases which I think can be handled:

- big company is aware of it and disables it: so they don't have a
problem with the default.

- smaller freelancer doesn't even know about it, and only gets aware of
it when space gets out: not the nicest way to get aware of it, but still
a way to bring him attention to the problem.

> I think the main problem with this log is not its size.

I consider that this is the main problem you are pointing at, because
this is what you just wrote above ("more space lost for nothing").

Or do you really consider it conceptually harmful to log calls to
deprecated methods?

> I think the main
> problem is that it was made by developers for developers and now developers
> refuse to admit that they are not the majority who uses TYPO3 :) It is
> quite common for developers to feel themselves at the center of the world
> and think that their favorite logs, debug messages and tools are used by
> everybody. So sdad that it is not true... :)

This is not my feature and I am not looking at it from a developers
perspective.

We in the core have had a very strict policy of backwards compatibility
until now which is very unique and quite uncommon when we compare with
other open source products. Upgrading TYPO3 is fun and one can be
(mostly) sure that everything still works as expected. I love it, people
love it, and not only developers love it.

But at the moment we break this rule by deprecating and really
*removing* stuff two versions later we end up having upset people. Who
of the "regular users" really reads the "changelog" to see if something
will brake? Who reads the "source code" to see if their used extensions
still work? How many people just "upgrade and test if everyhing looks
ok" but have a bad feeling that "something might be broken, we'll never
know for sure"? What better tool than a deprecation log to help regular
people know about the issues before they hit them?

This is not a debug tool, or a tool for developers. Main benefit comes
from the "regular small businesses" that just want to keep their site
running but also with the potential to upgrade TYPO3 from time to time.

Cheers,
Ernesto