[TYPO3-core] RFC #8495: Buttons look like input-field

[Dmitry Dulepov [typo3]]

Hi!

Firsts, I appologize for the second part of e-mail, which is probably not what you want to hear ;) But I think it is better to clarify some moments at early stages than to let the problem go deeper.

Secondly, I am CCying to Jens because I am not sure that he reads core list regularly.

Thirdly, it took nearly half an hour to write this mail and I am still unsure if I should send it. It does not make me feel good :( May be I should send it and we will see what happens. We are not children, so we all should act reasonably when arguments are provided.

ben van 't ende [netcreators] wrote:
> Right on! Fortunately Firefox3 looks absolutely great. We decided that 
> users of Firefox are most likely to upgrade soon and that the ugly 
> buttons are most likely not an issue at the time we will release TYPO3 
> 4.3. Makes sense?

Yes.

> Well yes looks bad in Firefox2, but that is the only system where it 
> looks bad. I tried most browsers and I was very happy with the looks. 
> Certainly from a usability perspective. The user is used to that kind of 
> buttons.

I like when interface looks consistent. Default OS look is not consistent with t3skin. This is one side. The other side is that usability experts do not recommend changing default look because users are familiar with it. This is an important point I think. However we do not change buttons much, they are still recognizable as buttons. I prefer them styled. This is not a -1 on default look and feel. This is a preference.

> One thing that I would like to say is that the HCI team as it is now 
> consists of some very capable guys and that we know what we are talking 
> about. I would surely like that HCI gets some authority in the TYPO3 
> community. We can clearly make a distinction between some areas where 
> decisions can be made. Isn't it strange that we need +1 from developers 
> that are not really responsible for the looks but for the functionality. 
> We can always discuss things on the core list, but we, as HCI, should 
> certainly have the right to APPROVE an issue as opposed to VETO an issue 
> what seems quit fashionable these days.

(This part is long and may not be a good reading. I apologize again if it makes anyone feel uncomfortable. This was not my intention. I care only about quality and our common goals here! I hope you (=HCI team) do not start hating me after reading.)

Yes, you still need +1s from core developers even on this topics. This was decided by core team and personally I insist on this. Reasons will be explained below.

HCI team has the [credited] authority, it can veto UI changes, all UI changes should be approved by this team and the team should propose UI-related changes. But core team still keeps the exclusive right to authorize changes to core.

HCI team consists from humans, who can make mistakes too. Do not forget about it. I do not think that telling "we are always right in HCI, so commit our changes without any word against it" is a right view. How many of HCI team members are really trained in HCI and usability? Jens is. Who else? So I do not see the strong authority in the team yet. Team is formed and saying "do not contradict our proposals" sounds very bad from just created team. HCI team will have real influence when we see how it works and that it works thinkfully and consequently. Team will get true authority when it creates great UI changes. I saw changes originated from Jens, so I trust him totally. I know I can accept 99% of his proposals without a slightest change. He is genius in HCI, I always said it. But I do not know how good are others in HCI. Things like reverting buttons to OS look do not show much. They do not add much HCI value. You see, looks like many people dislike it! Your users dislike it!
 But you still push it. Is that called good HCI?

The problem with "forge" teams is that anyone can join. This is the advantage of open source but this is a disadvantage for the HCI team because it makes people like me unsure about team quality. You are all great people (I know you all) but how good are you as HCI specialists? (For example, I never said I am good at HCI). How do I know that I should trust you ("you" here means "HCI team")?

Newly formed and enthusiastic HCI team truly needs to produce something great to gain trust that it is compenent. Just saying "we are HCI team" does not mean you can be trusted as HCI specialists. It is like saying "I am God" and asking to trust it. Sorry, this won't work with people who has even smallest intellect. If I were you, I would not rush with implementation as you (=team) do but rather make sketches and concepts first. This will look like a serious work. Current change attempts look like jumps to random directions, not as systematic work. I do not see any concept behind these changes. I do not see any real plan to make UI better. This makes me think that HCI team is a group of people whose HCI enthusiasm will die in 2-3 months.

Btw, Jens had a plan in his old HCI slides. Why don't you take that for implementation?

There is another important thing. You should consider it when speaking about the final authority of HCI team over HCI changes. Even most capable HCI specialists (like Steven Krug or Jacob Nielsen) always put their solutions to test by users. They throw away thing that people do not like. They understand the importance of user testing. We here do the very first user tesing for your findings. Remember that. Disregarding opinions of users means that you create interface for yourself only, not for users. But it is users whom you should target. This is why we have HCI team. Do not forget about the purpose of your team!

HCI team should not think it is always right in everything. This wrong view and it never yet created any good interface. HCI team should propose and listen what people think about it: do they like it or not. If they like - great, let's go. If no, let's tune it. It works only this way, not buy dictating.

I like that Jens, as HCI leader, listens to arguments and agrees when he see them reasonable. I think it is a right way to go for the whole team.

P.S. HCI team, please, do not take this as personal offense. Our common goal is to create a best product in the world. I am as interested in it as you do! So, let's work together to make it happen!

-- 
Dmitry Dulepov
TYPO3 core team
Learn more about TYPO3! Read http://typo3bloke.net/
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