[TYPO3-english] worried about 4.x (6.x)

[Thomas Skierlo]

hi all,

> Hi,
>
> Am 12.10.2012 18:11, schrieb Thomas Skierlo:
>> What I mean is the big
>> picture of usability for one (still - or formerly important) target user
>> group, the system integrators, who finally helped spreading the word. Do
>> they still get what they need - in a way which is both understandable as
>> well as sophisticated? Are all external extensions which are mission
>> critical for a real ECMS brought to the next level or are at least
>> substituted by solid replacements? No? Than stop the train or otherwise
>> damage may occurr to the main product.
> IMO integrators still get what they need. But of course I am a bit more
> than integrator so maybe I overlook some things ... so what do you think
> integrators need?
Well, since we are talking about CMS, integrators need a solid base to 
present content, including the markup needed. The latter one is 
dependent on "Zeitgeist", the spirit of the times. In ancient times, 
when nobody knew about accordions or grids, it was perfectly ok if a CMS 
did not offer a way get them. Today things are different. Everybody 
knows about accorions, tabbed content and the grid, and many want to use 
this gimmicks. This is no problem today, since people still can use TV. 
My posts to this thread are not about TV, but about the technologies 
promoted heavily since 2009. Try it yourself and google for "TYPO3 and 
gridelements" or "TYPO3 custom content elements fluid extbase" and you 
will come in touch with articles about the new "TV killers". Current 
Gridelements has nothing to do with extbase or fluid. It uses pure old 
Typoscript. Its very promising for static markup, but try to build 
something more complex and you'll notice, that you either get a db 
access monster or a clear miss. I am still struggling with the 
extension, but I can't find a way to take decisions for one content 
element upon another one. Fluidtemplate looks promising too, since I can 
use Fluid without the extbase stuff. Tried for two days to joing 
Gridelements and Fluidtemplate, which should be possible, since both 
only use Typoscript - but in the end I ended up with one template per 
column, which offers no improvement at all.

In a 2012 ECMS you shouldn't be urged to install a long dependency chain 
of extensions just to get content in a more sophisticated way. Again, I 
know that I can get everything I need today, by means of TV or a mixture 
of TV and Fluidtemplate. I'm perfectly sure that there is another way to 
get the same, or even better results in Neos. I strongly believe that TV 
will even work under 6.0, since the devs are doing an excellent job for 
years. BUT: Am I acting responsible to stick to the old fashioned way of 
doing things? Its a long time since the release of 4.5, and many things 
of minor and major importance have been changed on the way to 6.0. But 
still no official, easy or understandable way to handle multiple content 
within one CE. An ECMS definitely doesn't need a real-estate selling 
tool as a base component, but when it comes to "C" part of ECMS, there 
should be no limits. The fact, that this involves templates or 
templating paradigms, is of rather minor importance - as long as this 
feature isn't missing. You already agreed that Grid/FCE etc. are a kind 
of missing feature. My position is that this functionallity must be 
available either by core or a system extension AND that it should use 
technologies promoted since 2009, hopefully with certain similarities to 
future products like Neos. I like the fact that indexedsearch is 
included in the core package, but when it comes to a point of decision 
taking I'd rather prefer modern content handling over searching. I often 
heard the phrase "TYPO3 core team will never take sides when it comes to 
templating". I can understand that position. On the other hand, why are 
they taking sides when it comes to searching? We have an "S" inside 
ECMS, but it doesn't mean "search", and we have a "C", which means 
content. To answer your question: Integrators need a modern way to 
handle content - whatever that may mean. If it is not available out of 
the box, but hidden inside some core treasures, people need guidance to 
unvail and use it to get what they need. This may or may not be only an 
integrator's view - from my feelings I believe basic functionality like 
multiple-content would ease life for developers too. Without having a 
solutions for this problem thousands of working hours are burned without 
any chance to being used for "giving back to the comminity" activites.


>
>> That doesn't matter. As long as community extensions are needed for
>> basic scaffolding within the CMS, they are of same importance as the
>> core itself - at least in the real world. To name a few: Url-Management,
>> News system, powerful templating. Ease of templating alway was one motor
>> of success for TYPO3, and for many integrators this part is getting
>> harder and harder with any new (sub)release.
> What did get harder? And I believe that this is still something a
> community can take care of. But yes - again - a FCE thing in the core
> would be awesome and great.
>
> Speaking for myself: having a news extension in core would not be fun at
> all, as this has also several drawbacks like the release cycle. And just
> because people are "only" integrators it doesn't mean they can't help
> building or improving such extensions. There are many many things to do
> and not just developing like:
> - improving manuals: integrators are the ones who integrate the
> extension, if something is missing in the manual, just add it there and
> it will help every person.
> - financing: yes of course this helps a lot and nobody says that 1
> integrator needs to sponsor everything. take a look at gridelements 2.0
> - or organize yourself in a mailinglist, forum wherever.

I perfectly know what you mean, since I followed the development of 
"news" a couple of month ago. "News" was the first community extension 
from the extbase shelf I ever used in production and "News" is a perfect 
example for my core message about mission critical components: Lets put 
it in drastic words: A ECMS without a news management and presentational 
system available is worthless. Does everybody need News? No. Do most of 
the people using TYPO3 need News? Probably. OK, no room for a system 
extension called "news", because there might be installations without 
it. No problem at all, since a powerful community extension is 
available, which is using latest technologies. Without "News" I would 
expect the core people to get sleepless and nervous, at least if they 
are able to get the whole picture of the importance of a missing feature 
for everything and everyone involved, including their own existance as 
(maybe) payed members and developers. Don't know the internals.

Now: Substitute "News" by "Clear and modern general templating - abr.: 
Modern Templating" and ask the very same questions. You'll get my 
position if your ansers would match mine:
A ECMS without "Modern Templating" is worthless. Does everybody needs 
Modern Templating? No. Do most of the people using TYPO3 need Modern 
Templating? Without any doubt. OK, no room for a system extension called 
"Modern Templating", because there might be installations without it. 
Big problem, because currently no community extension fully covers the 
need. Not because of a lack of technology, which is available for nearly 
4 years. Red lights on - blinking!

Hope I clearified my point.

Now people might call that "complaining" - I'd rather use the phrase 
"warning". I want to prepare myself for the future, and I'm stuck, and 
worried. And maybe I'm not alone.

Enjoy the weekend,

Thomas