[Neos] I am sad
Carsten Bleicker
carsten at bleicker.de
Fri May 16 10:53:58 CEST 2014
Hi christian loock,
1. http is the very basic root and it has side effects also on neos wich ends up in a later stable neos. So its not only a flow thing (Sending a new title is a patch, not a put imho wich is not possible right now. so neos is only able to send post/put because of the framework)
2. "but for small to medium size websites, it is totally fine". I used it and i i can say its not.
3. "However, you should never forget that this is a community effort. Mails like yours shine the wrong light upon neos". Trust me, i tried personal contacts. Answers where promised but never deliverd.
Anyway, the over all information in my mail shouldt be some technical stuff. Its more the trust thing.
So also if i am wrong with some technical detail, the trust thing still stays above of it.
----------------------
Carsten Bleicker
Wülfingstraße 1
42477 Radevormwald
E-Mail: carsten at bleicker.de
Web: www.bleicker.de
Twitter: @carstenbleicker
Jabber: cbleicker at jabber.ccc.de
Telefon: 02191-7894878
Am 16.05.2014 um 10:37 schrieb Christian Loock <brainshack at gmail.com>:
> Hi,
>
> so I get where you are coming from. Neos imho isn't really in a state for a
> real 1.0 release. I feel like it has been rushed to be there where it
> actually could use some polisbh. However, I still would have to disagree on
> you major complain about the HTTP Portion. I don't think that this should
> really be a high priority for a CMS. Restfull APIs imho are not a core part
> of a CMS that you really need. It is more somthing on the framework side of
> things. So yes, if you say that FLOW needs to have better support for REST,
> I agree. If you say that NEOS needs support for REST, I disagree. At least
> not as a high priority.
>
> As far as the User Experience goes, I can't really tell from my own
> experience, because I didn't use Neos that much myself, but what you tell
> certainly makes sense to me.
>
> However, you should never forget that this is a community effort. Mails
> like yours shine the wrong light upon neos. Just because it does not fit
> for your very special needs doesn't mean that neos is in no good state in
> general. You problably don want to use it for high scale enterprise
> projects, but for small to medium size websites, it is totally fine. Even
> though there are some problems, they dont seem to be really that big, that
> they cant be fixed in short time. Just contribute solutions, if there
> aren't any in the works. Thats what makes open source so great. Anybody can
> get involved.
>
>
> 2014-05-16 10:28 GMT+02:00 Carsten Bleicker <carsten at bleicker.de>:
>
>> Sorry for this mistake:
>> Wrong: "I cant trust a system that have bugs."
>> Right: "I CAN trust a system that have bugs."
>>
>>
>> ----------------------
>>
>> Carsten Bleicker
>> Wülfingstraße 1
>> 42477 Radevormwald
>>
>> E-Mail: carsten at bleicker.de
>> Web: www.bleicker.de
>> Twitter: @carstenbleicker
>> Jabber: cbleicker at jabber.ccc.de
>> Telefon: 02191-7894878
>>
>> Am 16.05.2014 um 10:18 schrieb Carsten Bleicker <carsten at bleicker.de>:
>>
>>> So, let me try to explain the reasons why i had stop my neos activities.
>>>
>>> At first: Reasons are not the amount of bugs and also not missing
>> features.
>>> Its more the experience, that some decisions made under pressure
>>> wich leads to walk into a wrong direction and dont let me trust into the
>> systems future quality anymore.
>>> Okay, maybe „wrong decisions“ is also wrong. Its more the time when
>> something ist done.
>>> There are some things, wich had to be done before anything else. If you
>> dont, you have to rollback
>>> what is currently done.
>>>
>>> I want to try to explain this by talking about the following:
>>> 1. Caching
>>> 2. HTTP
>>>
>>> Currently there is NO further work done, either conceptional or
>> practical, on http handling, wich is the root of any process the Flow
>> Framework will process.
>>>
>>> But whats currently done is conceptional and practical work on caching.
>>> Why am i talking about HTTP here? It seems to work!
>>> But, the concept of http handling is done up to 20% imho.
>>> If you want to make flow realy „Resty“ there are 80% missing.
>>> There is no Patch possible, no Multipart, no image/jpeg content type,
>> etc.
>>> Also there is a mixup done of resource i am requesting and the content
>> of this resource.
>>> It mixes up GET and POST. Wich is not realy a strict http handling. But
>> maybe i am wrong.
>>> But if i am right, and you’re developing something else in the layers
>> below this http layer,
>>> you will run into problems. Working on the http will result in different
>> structure of arguments, f.e.
>>> This will lead to massive work on routing, mapping, validating AND at
>> least caching and any request f.e.
>>> wich is done internaly by neos. All of this leads me to 2 more years of
>> development if you dont rethink your decisions.
>>> If you rethink, it will save you a lot of time on refactoring neos. And
>> it will also be a fun to develop resty apps.
>>>
>>> So looking at the list above, i am sure it needs a switch.
>>> 1. HTTP
>>> 2. Routing
>>> 3. Mapping
>>> 4. …
>>> 5. …
>>> 99999. Caching
>>>
>>> The missing HTTP Features i am talking about are known and reported into
>> the chat.
>>> But i have the feeling, that there is no interest in what i am saying
>> wich leeds me in:
>>> Losing Trust. And trust ist the most important thing for me. I gave a
>> lot advance laurels of trust,
>>> but i cant do this anymore.
>>>
>>> But let me say again: Its not the thing that there are bugs. I cant
>> trust a system that have bugs.
>>> But i am loosing trust on wrong conceptions/decisions.
>>>
>>> So in my words :) „I give a shit on caching. If its slow, i still able
>> to do something on the hardware site. But what i definitly need is a
>> perfect root. If i dont have a perfect root, i cant go further. The risk of
>> rollback is to high. I dont climb on a tree with the knowledge of a brittle
>> root.“
>>>
>>> I am bound to say that the http handling is wrong in its current state.
>> If i use it as it is right now, i will end up in unmaintainable projects
>> because the change will be a breaking one. And all of my work in projects
>> has to be refactored. My client structure does not give me a chance to do
>> so. So here i am at a point wich leads me to: Don’t do this!
>>>
>>> So this is the root of my decision. But there are more but with less
>> weight.
>>>
>>> —————————
>>>
>>> I did a try with flow to build up an application wich is multi-client
>> capable.
>>> For this i do some conceptional work wich leads me to a doctrine feature
>> called „combined identities“.
>>> Wonderfull, exactly what i need. Doctrine supports it, Flow is using
>> doctrine … So it should be possible. During development i realized, that
>> the doctrine implementation in flow seems to be castrated. So, what i tried
>> is to provide a patch for this. The patch is done for 90%. For the last 10%
>> i needed help and asked for it. But i dont get it. My feeling: You need to
>> have a „Standing“ in the community to earn some interest for your patch.
>> And this is frustrating. Its more frustrating if i see this wake-up call
>> after my experience: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1Eeb6qO_y0
>>>
>>> —————————
>>>
>>> Back to Neos
>>> My work with Neos ends up again in this result: Losing Trust
>>> I allways hear that there a live systems and they work well.
>>> What i never here is:
>>> 1. „There are live systems, but its very hard to use them because of
>> cryptical exception messages appearing after 5 klicks“
>>> 2. „There are live systems, but we decide only allow access by devs
>> because they know what they never should do.“
>>> 3. „There are live systems, but they are crashing if there are 2 user on
>> it doing the same work.“
>>> 4. „There are live systems, but if you open the backend for users you’ll
>> end up in a crashed db.“
>>>
>>> Are there realy live systems??? I cant believe that they are running
>> without problems and without anger.
>>>
>>> If i will sell Neos to my clients they will send me a lawyer and i can
>> end up my working.
>>> And i also loose reputation if i recommend to use it. Sorry, but thats
>> the reality.
>>> But let me say this also: You didnt do a bad job!!!! The idea is good,
>> the team is highly skilled!!!
>>> But the decissioins seems to have some failures.
>>> Currently i am not in a situation to have the financial background to do
>> further work with/on neos.
>>> So i decided against it. But i hope you will think about the above said
>> with focus on conceptional work at the root.
>>>
>>> —————————
>>>
>>> Its frustrating me if i am at the end of my projekt and decide to
>> cleanup double media elements from the media module wich ends up in
>> destroying the work of the last 3 days. deleting a media item in the media
>> browser ends up in deleting my last 3 days work in creating content because
>> there is no check of usage of this item in my content. Its deleted hard
>> without any questions to me „Do you realy want this?“ „HELL, NOOOOOO!“.
>> Ends up in „Frustration“, end up in „Losing trust“.
>>>
>>> Yes, there is a patch for this. But this does not solve another issue.
>> As far as i remember it simply doing either nothing on the delete request
>> if its in usage or it throws an exception. But throwing exceptions and dont
>> handle them isnt a solution.
>>> Wich gets me to the next one:
>>>
>>> ———————————
>>>
>>> The user experience.
>>> My clients having experience on the system. They are calling me by phone
>> and asking me:
>>> „what exactly means: ‚Unexpected error while moving node:
>> {„readyState“:4,responseText:“<!Doctype html Public ….“}‘?“
>>>
>>> Sure, its hard and complicated to build up a concept how to handle
>> errors and giving the user not only the problem.
>>> But if its hard, its not a reason to skip it. Instead of this it needs a
>> Problem/Solution idea or concept. Wich brings me back to the above caching
>> and a missing/wrong priority list. And i have to say: Building up a cache
>> or building cloud ready features at this state of work and conception is
>> waste of time and waste of developer skill. A wrong decision/direction.
>> Result on my site: Losing trust.
>>>
>>> User experience is one of the most important things that neos is able to
>> earn the recognitions you want for it.
>>> Conception has to be done. Fancy features has to be stopped.
>>>
>>> ———————————
>>>
>>> The „Flow“
>>> You want to get me in a working „Flow“.
>>> But if i try to find answers i find answers decentralized (if i find
>> some) and not on the typo3.org resources.
>>> I find solutions from sandstorm, kfish etc. The core team has its
>> infrastructure but there is no central information
>>> about it. Coding guidelines exports for phpstorm, where? Ah, kfish site,
>> there is an export of php strom settings as far as i can remember. Why is
>> this all so decentralized. Why are there are so many rare informations and
>> if there are informations why so hard to find? Thats not a flow you
>> promised. I bet there are may people who dont know anything about unit
>> testing. If they start, they ends up in: „Okay, the 2 days of doing stuff
>> for unit testing was wasting time because flow delivers anything you need“.
>> Information about this is exactly where? As far as i remember there is no
>> information of it. but maybe there are some decentralized ones? Maybe i am
>> wrong and this missing info is fixed now. But there are more. F.e. i am
>> using xdebug breakpoints. This does not work with flow because of class
>> compilation. Solution-Search leads me to the sandstorms debug proxy,
>> decentralized. Trying to use it leads to a waste of time because you
>> figuere out after some hours, that it does not work anymore with flow.
>> Infos about this? None, as far as i remember. So my wish: Share your
>> knowledge, share your infrastructure. And do it centralized. Pick up the
>> people where they are. Lead them to the promised „Flow“.
>>>
>>> ———————————
>>>
>>> At the end:
>>> Dont get me wrong! I dont criticize any work of any developer! Any
>> developer in this team has 1000% more skills then me.
>>> My personal fact is „Losing trust“. In most cases you cant realy say why
>> this happens. But it happens.
>>> Hope you start to ask WHY this happens. You have to do ask, if you want
>> neos being the big player you want it to be.
>>> I am sure, i am not alone with this feeling.
>>>
>>> Kind regards
>>> Carsten
>>>
>>> PS I beg your pardon because of my crappy english :)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------
>>>
>>> Carsten Bleicker
>>> Wülfingstraße 1
>>> 42477 Radevormwald
>>>
>>> E-Mail: carsten at bleicker.de
>>> Web: www.bleicker.de
>>> Twitter: @carstenbleicker
>>> Jabber: cbleicker at jabber.ccc.de
>>> Telefon: 02191-7894878
>>>
>>> Am 15.05.2014 um 20:32 schrieb Carsten Bleicker <carsten at bleicker.de>:
>>>
>>>> Bastian already gets an answer from me. But in german.
>>>> So give me some hours to translate it ;)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------
>>>>
>>>> Carsten Bleicker
>>>> Wülfingstraße 1
>>>> 42477 Radevormwald
>>>>
>>>> E-Mail: carsten at bleicker.de
>>>> Web: www.bleicker.de
>>>> Twitter: @carstenbleicker
>>>> Jabber: cbleicker at jabber.ccc.de
>>>> Telefon: 02191-7894878
>>>>
>>>> Am 15.05.2014 um 20:23 schrieb Rasmus Skjoldan <rasmus at typo3.org>:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Carsten
>>>>>
>>>>> Just to let you know: I'm listening on here and also very interested
>> in hearing all the feedback from you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Rasmus
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 14/05/2014, at 21.38, Carsten Bleicker <carsten at bleicker.de>
>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will explain it all tomorrow, okay?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----------------------
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Carsten Bleicker
>>>>>> Wülfingstraße 1
>>>>>> 42477 Radevormwald
>>>>>>
>>>>>> E-Mail: carsten at bleicker.de
>>>>>> Web: www.bleicker.de
>>>>>> Twitter: @carstenbleicker
>>>>>> Jabber: cbleicker at jabber.ccc.de
>>>>>> Telefon: 02191-7894878
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am 14.05.2014 um 21:28 schrieb Dominique Feyer <dfeyer at ttree.ch>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I’m really interested too in a definition of « incalculable » and
>> your personal reason to say that about Neos ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In two or three year Neos will be really awesome … for a 1.0 projet,
>> the current situation sound like more than usable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bests,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> ttree sàrl
>>>>>>> Dominique Feyer
>>>>>>> Rue du Valentin 34 et demi
>>>>>>> CH - 1004 Lausanne
>>>>>>> +41 21 312 36 35
>>>>>>> dfeyer at ttree.ch
>>>>>>> ttree.ch - @ttreeagency - plan d’accès
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Le 14 mai 2014 à 19:55:04, Bastian Waidelich (bastian at typo3.org) a
>> écrit:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Carsten Bleicker wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Carsten,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> after a few months with neos i am realy sorry, but i have to say no
>> at this point.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's indeed very sad to read. Your feedback was very valuable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Imho this system will need another 2 or 3 years to get realy in a
>> state wich is not only
>>>>>>>> usable but also calculatable for for business usage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frankly, Neos is in its infancy still. But for me there's no blocker
>>>>>>> that would make it incalculable (at least not for small and mid-size
>>>>>>> projects). Especially because I feel like being able to adjust
>> behavior
>>>>>>> in a very fine-grained way if I need to.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not trying to convince you of course, but could you elaborate
>> what
>>>>>>> exactly makes it less calculable than CMS for example? Is it the API
>>>>>>> that is still changing a lot, general instability or maybe also the
>> lack
>>>>>>> of experience you might have with it compared to CMS (no rhetoric
>>>>>>> question!).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hope to see/read you soon again @all!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes! And let's hope that it's not 2 or 3 years from now ;)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Christian, you're so near to my location and i would be happy to
>> invite you to a lunch for all your help.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In that case, I'm probably close to your location as well and I might
>>>>>>> join you (I'll pay for my lunch of course) ;)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Bastian Waidelich
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Neos mailing list
>>>>>>> Neos at lists.typo3.org
>>>>>>> http://lists.typo3.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/neos
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Neos mailing list
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>>>>>>
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