[TYPO3-50-general] I can't see AJAX anywhere?

[Robert Lemke]

Hi Dan an Elmar,

I fully agree with Elmar here: We want as few logic on the client side
as possible. And that is not an outdated view - Martin Fowler and  
friends
don't tire of preaching to make the presentation layer as dumb as  
possible.
You can't rely on the client - that is not only true in the business
world.

Because a JavaScript / AJAX driven backend is just another view, we  
don't
want to deal with that as a developer – we better concentrate on the  
domain.
If you can speak of a trend, then it is letting the developer control  
the
JavaScript from (in our case) PHP - "no JavaScript was harmed in  
developing
this website" is a common sentence I read on webpages of AJAX  
frameworks.

With AJAX frameworks I'm referring to XAJAX, PAJAJ, Tigermouse, jPOP  
and the
like. And as Elmar said, you can't compare that with Prototype. That  
would
be if you had to decide using either Apache or PHP - you probably  
need both.

RoR even makes the JS DOM tree available as plain Ruby objects which  
you can
modify and then the framework takes care of altering the real JS objects
as well. That is a clever approach I think.

So, for 5.0, we probably can't use a ready made solution on the  
server side,
because we want a clean, tight and userfriendly integration into our own
MVC mechanism. But for the client side we have all options open. I  
currently
tend to use Mootools because it is very clean, stable and lightweight.
But it should be easy to replace that with another solution later on.

Cheers,
robert

Am 26.07.2007 um 02:36 schrieb Elmar Hinz:

> dan frost wrote:
>
>> This is from experience.
>>
>> We used xajax for approx 1 year across most of our projects and then
>> started playing with Prototype. Of course, to use Prototype in PHP  
>> you
>> need to build the server-side but the implementation on the client- 
>> side
>> is more elegant in Prototype than Xajax.
>>
>> I'm afraid I take your comments about buzz words with a pinch of salt
>> because of my above comment.
>>
>> Also, I add more salt because I can't believe you're suggesting not
>> using client-side processing. Accessibility or not - what about  
>> the huge
>> trends towards using Ajax and other client-side processing (see  
>> post on
>> google gears).
>>
>> My suggestion:
>> - prototype for Ajax. Easier and quicker to implement. Cross-browser
>> event handling etc.
>> - Simple, custom Ajax server.
>>
>> It's not a huge issue really. But I'm surprised at the out-dated
>> comments about client-side coding..
>>
>> cheers,
>> dan]
>>
>
> Hi Dan,
>
> the critic on client side coding isn't out-dated today and it will  
> not be
> outdated 10 years ahead. The problem is a principle one. Clientside  
> coding
> simply requires a reliable monoculture of clients, that isn't  
> developing
> any more. DOM brought a lot of convergence, but the amount of web  
> clients
> is growing again and new devices are arriving.
>
> Think of forms in PDF. Think of flash. Think of FO. Think of iPhono  
> as the
> first messanger of the range of future web devices. To plan V5 for a
> monoculture of web clients is IMHO not very foresighting. I would  
> rather
> tend ot call it negligent.
>
> Certainly. Client-side coding is lazy doing. It's economic for  
> projects for
> your small customers that are content, if the homepage can be  
> accessed by
> 95% percent of the visitors. But hey, that's not the target group  
> of TYPO3.
> Our customers request 99.99.% reliability.
>
> I am not against the use of prototype and friends. Javascript  
> libraries are
> nice add-ons today. They offer useful functionality for closed  
> areas and
> for specialized target groups. But by principle they can't serve as  
> the
> fundament for large, long term solutions. Server side logic will  
> always be
> the safe way. It will stay as the fundament that can't be dropt.
>
> xajax is an early, and meanwhile very old tool. But it's not  
> impossible to
> design easy server side ajax. The road to go for V5 is to make  
> server side
> ajax libraries as simple to use as client side javascript. There  
> shouldn't
> be additional work at all. I imagine serverside ajax rather as a  
> part of
> the 5V object library. A technoloty that works transparently for the
> developes and users, without additional efforts to make.
>
> Regards
>
> Elmar
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robert
-- 
http://typo3.org/gimmefive