[Typo3-dev] the horror of different usertables

[Daniel Hinderink [TYPO3]]

>> 
>> 
>> It is very much a question of the scenario you will use TYPO3 in, if this
>> data will be redundant. Ignoring all other possible situations is what
>> Kasper called arrogant. SO your argument that the data is redundant is
>> actually proof that you do not consider other requirements.
>> 
>> 
> 
> It is a well known fact that working with redundant data leeds to errors and
> other probs.

Standardising data resources across different use cases is leading to major
overhead when enrichment of this basic data is the rule.

Duh? Duh!
 
> If you can imagine scenarios that lead to redundant data and others that
> don't, 
> then is the mere existance of the second possibility by no mean a proof that
> someone who points out the existance the first is arrogant because of that.

Your logic looks like this:

A Redundancy = bad
B Measures to avoid redundancy = always worth it, because of A

Our situation is that B looks like this
B Measures to avoid redundancy = worse than A

It might be applicable to your situation that A is really really bad. The
reason might be, that you are forced to use TYPO3 in a situation where it is
not the optimal tool for the job. Or your analysis of the use cases is
falsely and unecessarily mixing up BE and FE. However, it reeks of a
management problem, in which you either haven't succeeded in consulting the
client not to use TYPO3 in this case, or you have not applied your use cases
to TYPO3 the right way, resulting in budget and time problems.

Any way, you are stuck with a tool that is not built for your requirements,
or you don't know how to map these reuirements to TYPO3 correctly. Now your
reaction is to tell us that it's a bad tool and that your problem is
everyones problem. I guess that strategy is common, but also not very
promising.

>If 
> someone is attributing other people in such ways, only because they speak out
> their personal point of view, it first of all reveals a lot of his own
> character. That's all.

I just tried to explain to you, why your remark seems ignorant.
 
> There are situations when this construction lead to redundant date. And they
> surley are not rare. If they make out the minority or the mayority of
> applications may be point of exploration and expirience.
> 
> But the question shouldn't really be how often situations with redundant date
> occur. That they accour at all, is not a good sign.

Time for an announcement:
*loudspeaker crackle*
Ladies and gentlemen, please leave the building immediately, not-good signs
of redundancy have been showing up in the user management department.
Please do not enter any of the other software complexes in the vicinity,
they might contain redundancy also. As does this email thread. Thank you for
your cooperation.
*loudspeaker crackle*


> Questions are,
> 
> 1.) if redundance is really necessary here,
> 2.) if there would be soulutions free of redundance,
> 3.) what would be costs to alter the system now,
> 4.) are the costs increasing, if you alter it later,
> 5.) what is the price not to alter it at all.
> 
> The first question will probably allways be disputed.
> The second is a clear yes.
> The third is, that the price is obviously to high, that we could do it now.
> Who can foretell the fourth?
> The price are all those difficulties, that result from the keeping redundant
> date and the necessity to develop a bundle of workarounds.
> 
> 
> So what will be the results:
> 
> 1.) There will be allways be some dispute on this point.
> 2.) A bundle of workarounds and syncronizations will be developed sooner or
> later and we learn how to live with this.
> 3.) Typo3 gives competing systems some room to develop, that are from their
> core 
> more community friendly.

I think the above has been taken care of.

Back to the principle-driven approach you seem to be following: It is not
about redundancy vs non-redundancy, it is about the best possible system for
the job. So far no one has proven that and exactly which other (possibly
non-redundant) user management system is a better alternative.

I am all for such a discussion and not available for one on absolute values
for no real world relevance for a vast majority of applications.

I mean that as an invitation to a competition of ideas for solutions, just
to make sure i am not misunderstood.

Cheers

Daniel

-- 

Daniel Hinderink
TYPO3 - get.content.right
Innovation, Marketing, PR
http://www.typo3.com

--
Don't spend time beating on a wall, hoping to transform it into a door.
Coco Chanel