[Typo3-dev] The future of typo3

Sat Oct 25 18:58:19 CEST 2003

Hi Kasper,

I agree with your. 

It's always easy to break something down.
Most times it's difficult to build something up.

I'm using typo3 for a while now, and yes there are thinks that could be
done better. But that goes for every other application to.
Out dated systems stand still and are not moving forward. I can't say
that for typo3. Maybe it doesn't goes as fast as we want it to be but
that count for us all I think.

Kasper you are doing a great job, and maybe want to do to much your self
;). I know that typo3 will grow in the right direction.

Rome was not build in one day you know!

In your words: God bless

Didier M.J.C. Gehéniau
Consultant

FEAS
info at feas.net
www.feas.net 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: typo3-dev-bounces at lists.netfielders.de 
> [mailto:typo3-dev-bounces at lists.netfielders.de] On Behalf Of 
> Kasper Skårhøj
> Sent: zaterdag 25 oktober 2003 18:33
> To: typo3-dev at lists.netfielders.de
> Subject: Re: [Typo3-dev] The future of typo3
> 
> 
> Hi Michael.
> 
> I have spend enough time on private mails with you already so 
> this is going to be short:
> 
> - Some of your points are not fair when you talk about 
> paradigms and ways things should work which obviously is just 
> your own idea. Sometimes, what you call outdated, we call a 
> feature. And customers agree.
> - Some of your points are good, I agree, but I have done my 
> best, is still doing and have in the process also become 
> aware that my ambitions for TYPO3 which could easily be 
> exactly what you have described is just not possible for me 
> to do overnight. This is already hard enough to accept, that 
> your thoughts are always lightyears ahead of what you can 
> actually get done.
> 
> All in all I'm very proud that TYPO3 has become what it is. 
> When I think about the process of making this project I'm 
> very proud to see how FEW inconsistencies there are after 
> all. I'm proud to realize how often I made a decision that 
> after all made TYPO3 better than another decision would have 
> meant for it.
> 
> TYPO3 is not perfect but I've tried my best to make it. And 
> to the degree it has been realized I'm actually exceedingly 
> satisfied. And honestly that makes me trust myself and my 
> views far more than yours.
> 
> And lets say that everyone agrees with you and suddently 
> nobody wants to use TYPO3; I would still be happy with my 
> creation since I works for me and actually that was where it 
> all started anyways; To create a tool to help myself. I'm 
> sorry for sharing that with the world. What a sin.
> 
> Finally michael; If you had had 5 years of full time 
> development starting also 5 years back in experience - would 
> you claim that you could have achieved something better than 
> TYPO3? In terms of quality, community, documentation, 
> consistency, standards etc?
> 
> I'm sorry TYPO3 was not the system for you, there must be 
> something else outthere since there are so many things wrong. 
> 
> Thanks for your comments. It could have been more 
> constructive if you offered and proved your own help in terms 
> of solving some of these issues and maybe mentioned a few 
> nice things about the system on top of it - currently you 
> have portraited yourself as a bitter man who has spend a lot 
> of time on a system which does nothing right. So why bother 
> giving us advice?
> 
> 
> God bless
> 
> - kasper
> 
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> 
> On 25-10-2003 at 12:51 Michael Zedeler wrote:
> 
> >Hi list
> >
> >I have been using typo3 for about two months now. This was 
> supposed to 
> >be the first typo3-project, and I considered it as an evaluation of 
> >typo3 with regard to deciding whether I should start using it in my 
> >business. I do proffesional IT-consulting and part of my assignments 
> >consists of building portals, corporate websites and intranets.
> >
> >My descision is that typo3 is not really worth using due to several, 
> >critical design flaws. I hav had much more trouble than I 
> "bargained" 
> >for when I started my evaluation project, and I have 
> narrowed down the 
> >scope where typo3 is useful quite a lot. Since typo3 is Open 
> Source, I 
> >would like to share with you why I have come to this 
> conclusion. Maybe 
> >it will result in a product more useful some time.
> >
> >My critique is broken down into items, that I will happily discusss 
> >with anybody reading this. I may sound very harsh, so please bear in 
> >mind that I do this for the better of typo3. Kill your darlings.
> >
> >Item 1: Outdated interaction paradigm
> >Typo3 is built around a paradigm that goes something like this "we 
> >publish
> >- they read", where "we" are the people with access to the 
> backend and
> >"they" are those people who only have access to the 
> frontend. This is an
> >old paradigm that dates all the way back to 1995 where I 
> started my career
> >as developer, and I thought it was long gone. Yes - there is a way of
> >adding data here and there using some very rudimentary 
> frontend plugins,
> >but the basic idéa is that you need backend access to do 
> anything really
> >fancy.
> >
> >I base this observation on the following facts:
> >
> > * The frontend users and groups have been completely separated fron 
> >the backend users and groups by putting them in separate tables.
> > * The code that handles permissions works very differently 
> depending 
> >on what part you're logged on to.
> > * The backend uses fairly advanced form-building libraries 
> that seem 
> >impossible or very hard to reuse as part of the front end.
> >
> >This paradigm is outdated and leads to grievances that should never 
> >have been there. Why? Because it leads to redundant code. If 
> you want 
> >to make a front end plugin that receives data from a user, you'll 
> >basically have to start from scratch. This is absolutely crazy, when 
> >you keep in mind that the backend has a lot of nice form-building 
> >libraries. It leads to longer development time and more (possibly 
> >critical) errors.
> >
> >Another, much more fundamental problem is that many websites 
> uses heavy 
> >interaction with all users, and does not comply with the very rigid 
> >frontend/backend-scheme. An example is wikis where everybody have 
> >access to edit everything. I know it is possible to do with 
> typo3, but 
> >only by letting people straight into a backend that uses a 
> fixed layout 
> >with little room for customization. Another example would be any 
> >website using heavy user interaction with many levels of permissions 
> >(or roles), such as an information portal, an intranet, 
> extranet or the 
> >like. In those cases, you have to either let the users straight into 
> >the backend when editing something or doing it all ground up.
> >
> >Ask yourself: how many times have you developed a front end 
> plugin that 
> >uses the rich text editor? My bet is none or very few because it is 
> >cumbersome. This is a waste of good code. I can go on ad 
> infinitum with 
> >regard to the rest of the backend code.
> >
> >I propose that:
> >
> > * All users and groups belong in two tables. Not four. 
> Merge backend 
> >and frontend code.
> > * The backend should not be built as an application seen very 
> >differently from the rest of the system. It should be just another - 
> >very advanced - facility available on the website, possbily 
> broken into 
> >a large number of plugins that you can insert wherever you want them.
> > * The frontend should have access to the advanced libraries 
> today only 
> >available in the backend.
> >
> >The new paradigm should be "everybody can edit - if permitted to".
> >
> >Item 2: Inconsistencies and loose ends in the system
> >Typo3 does not seem very consistent to me. Most things seem to have 
> >been invented and implemented without thinking about the overall 
> >design. I haven't had time to dig around in the code for 
> long, so I'll 
> >just mention the conflict between typoscript and the templates. 
> >Typoscript (which is destined to be misunderstood by every newbee, 
> >since it is *not* scripting
> >language) is able to produce and manipulate page content. 
> The same can be
> >done using templates, so which one do you choose? Typoscript 
> has access to
> >templating functions, so why not choose it as a basis for almost
> >everything you do? That is not possible, because typoscript 
> isn't complete
> >with regard to the tasks you may have to solve. Putting data 
> in a table in
> >a database is one of those things not possible.
> >
> >So what is the alternative? The alternative is to switch to 
> PHP, which 
> >has the effect that typoscript is hardly useful for any 
> purpose besides 
> >simple configuration of the application you write, and 
> nothing else. My 
> >conclusion is that most serious work cannot be done without coding 
> >something in PHP, so why promote Typoscript so strongly? Why 
> is there 
> >almost no documentation of all the PHP-libraries for typo3, 
> when this 
> >is actually what makes everything in typo3-world tick?
> >
> >What I see when I look at the development plans is that 
> there is a lot 
> >of effort put into developing new features. This is more fun for the 
> >developers, but please keep in mind that what I think is 
> really neeeded 
> >is a big cleanup and a completely new set of documentation. 
> I find it 
> >aggrevating to see little or no mention of theese problems on the 
> >website. Is it a "family secret"?
> >
> >Item 3: Lacking architecture documentation
> >I have had a hard time trying to find a manual that explains 
> the core 
> >of typo3. When developing typo3-plugins using PHP, I need 
> some kind of 
> >roadmap that explaings how the most important parts of the system 
> >works. What it should cover is a description of the 
> >request-response-cycle, how parameters are passed to various 
> parts of 
> >the system, user authentication and the properties and 
> methods of the 
> >TFSE.
> >
> >Item 4: Lacking best practise documentation
> >There is no documentation specifying how to write a plugin from a-z 
> >with all bells and whistles - using best practise. New 
> developers are 
> >left to reinvent their own best practise which can be very time 
> >consuming.
> >
> >Item 5: Kickstarting in the wrong direction (minor item)
> >The kickstarter is a great tool for getting started, but I 
> think that 
> >the code it produces is of very low quality. I have had to 
> rewrite the 
> >class files for forntend plugins completely because they were really 
> >not very flexible or easilly extensible. Other wierd inconsitencies 
> >found were:
> >
> > * The text "[Insert your comment here]" for commenting the code has 
> >been inserted in functions that have already been made by the 
> >kickstarter for you. What is the idea here? Comments are supposed to 
> >help developers understand what the code does, but for some reason 
> >commenting has been turned into a guessing contest.
> > * The functions getFieldHeader and getFieldContent has clearly been 
> >developed for use in some other context.
> > * The file ext_typoscript_editorcfg.txt is undocumented. 
> Asking on the 
> >mailing list what it does lead to Christian Jul answering "its not 
> >really meant to be used for anything".
> > * The files ext_tables.php, tca.php, locallang.php and 
> >locallang_db.php are riddled with syntax errors because consecutive 
> >rows in arrays are terminated by an extra comma. PHP can parse them, 
> >but syntax checkers choke on the errors there and it doesn't 
> look nice.
> > * AFAIK the main()-method tries to access a value called "CMD" that 
> >will always be unavailable because the field "select_key" from the 
> >table "tt_content" has not been passed to the plugin. Since the 
> >main()-method isn't working as it should, most people trying 
> to extend 
> >a class generated by the kickstarter will get a tough start.
> > * It would be nice if templates were used by the plugins generated.
> >
> >Summary:
> >I think that the future development of typo3 should be 
> focused on the 
> >following items:
> >
> > * Get to grips with the actual intensions of the different parts of 
> >the system. What is typoscript supposed to do? Are 
> developers supposed 
> >to work mainly in PHP? If "yes", please provide documentation! Are 
> >developers supposed to work mainly in typoscript? If "yes", 
> please make 
> >it complete!
> > * Working out better documentation - see above.
> > * Cleanup of code with two main targets: (1) make it 
> available for reuse
> >everywhere - eliminate the separation between frontend and 
> backend and (2)
> >rethink local design descisions that leads to redundant code.
> >
> >Developing new features is just another mudcake on top of the 
> >foundation of mud that has already been made. There is no solid 
> >foundation for large extensions, so don't even try.
> >
> >
> >
> >- Michael Zedeler (mzedeler)
> >
> >-----------------------
> >The mailing list archive is found here: http://typo3.org/1427.0.html
> >				
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Typo3-dev mailing list
> >Typo3-dev at lists.netfielders.de 
> >http://lists.netfielders.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/typo3-dev
> 
> 
> 
> God bless
> 
> - kasper
> 
> 
> - kasper
> -------------------- o ---------------------
> >>>    In God I trust - others pay cash!     <<<
> Check www.typo3.com
> 
> 
> 
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