[TYPO3-hci] BE vs FE

[Tapio Markula]

Waldemar Kornewald wrote:

> It takes a lot of steps to do very simple tasks. It's not very obvious
> how to create content

True - as default the Page module is is overloaded

> Well, it's still very overloaded. I mean, compare Typo3 with Plone, for 
> example.

it is possible to simplify - what is too much?
I made an extension, which allow to take more off

> This doesn't explain why you have to separate those users instead of
> using some "backend" role which can be assigned to anyone (such that
> you can give frontend users access to the backend if they become team
> members, for example). I mean, having this distinction is definitely
> more complicated than not having any distinction. And there doesn't
> seem to be any compelling reason to have such a hard line between both
> types of users if you could easily manage this with roles/permissions.

there are some extension, which allow frontend users to edit pages - and
adding one of those plugins you can get what you want.

> 
> Unfortunately, this system is very complicated because you can have
> multiple content sections

you can define also to use one content area - but you have the 
opportunity to as many content areas as you need.
it is not possible to restrict to put only once content element
to a content area.

> work with wizards

If you just make a new content after existing typo3 offers as default 
content type 'text.

> BTW, wizards are a good indicator of a too
> complicated interface because developers often try to hide complexity
> behind wizards.

how to make choises, what content to use and where to put the content?

> Please take a look at Skeletonz and Plone. Even MODx is easier in
> frontend-editing mode because it doesn't clutter the interface so
> much. Typo3 shows eight (!) buttons for each element

editing in pop-up window you mean or edit, hide ...
it is possible to define, what buttons to show

> additional buttons for the page itself. 

as default not possible to define, but I made an extension, where you 
can define, which buttons to show
 >What would be a reasonable absolute minimum? Four buttons?

what you really need - personally I like many buttons because they make 
some shortcuts (save and close for example).
I would *not* like CMS, which use just few buttons.
It is not bad to offer many buttons if there can be less.
Using my extension you can define exactly what buttons to show.

> behind drop-down buttons. For example, instead of showing "move up",
> "hide", etc. as separate buttons they could be bundled into one
> drop-down action list.

slower to use - IMO *much* worse - (I don't like drop-down-lists if 
something can be done without using them)

> Also, I don't like that pages themselves are split into records. 

this is just a matter of taste

 >Pages should only have one WYSIWYG editing section in which you can place
> plugins and everything.

Typo3 use standard Wysiwyg editors - only adding images and links are 
new components.

> This would be exactly as powerful, but a lot
> simpler because you don't have to care about different types of
> records. 

then you should build entire new editor or use special markers,
which looking source code could easily be destroyed - extremely 
vulnerable system.
I know a CMS, which use those kinds of vulnerable markers ([...])

>> pages use WYSIWYG editor for normal contents. forms have form editor,
>> to add/remove new fields - handy but not WYSIWYG.

> Yes, but you still have individual records/segments. It's not that you
> click "edit" and work on the *whole* page. You only work on individual
> segments.

I has advanctages and disadvantages. If everything is in one record,
the record would be difficult to edit. It is easier to edit smaller 
segments.

If elements are in smaller blocks it is easier to move them from place 
to place - using AJAX drag'ndrop or copy/cut/paste
like in the example below
http://t3test.xetpoint.com/media/development/backendediting5.png

Safe, because you don't have vulnerable markers inside one big content.

> Well, news, blogs, maybe even forums are the first thing you setup
> after installing a page. If that isn't intuitive then most users just
> try out the next CMS. Also, page creation should be as easy and
> intuitive as possible. ATM, it isn't.

maybe but Typo3 offers flexibility, which you automatic loose if you
want to show everything in one view.