[TYPO3-hci] BE vs FE

[Waldemar Kornewald]

On 8/1/06, JoH <info at cybercraft.de> wrote:
> > There has been lots of usability research on "offering multiple ways
> > of doing something". It has been shown a long time ago that it's
> > significantly easier for end-users to have only one way of doing it.
>
> So you as the admin should decide which way you want them to go.
> No problem so far. Simply disable the features you don't want and that's it.

That's not a real solution of the problem. You're just passing it to the admin.

> Well - you have different concepts to choose from. Why don't you just take
> the one that seems to be fitting your needs best instead of complaining
> about the others. You are not forced to use one special concept, so you
> should not force other users to use the one you prefer.

Of course I could. But then you should better close this mailing list
because it seems that nobody is really interested in improving TYPO3's
usability.

> > FE editing is indeed a nice concept and it's totally sufficient to
> > have one easy to use BE editing concept for complex tasks and a very
> > simple FE editing mode for simple tasks. But why do we need even more?
> > That's what plugins are for.
>
> I don't think you got the point. A plugin in TYPO3 terms is a just a
> different way of handling the output to the frontend. For the backend you
> can create so called modules, and if you don't like the way it is done in
> the page or list view, feel free to create your own module to handle the
> backend stuff the way you want it. Currently we are developing something for
> an end user with some special tasks that can't be solved with either page or
> list view, since the have to handle a lot of DB relations in just one view.

And what results do you have? Could your new scheme possibly replace
the old concept?

You sound like you're going to add yet another concept which is only
used by expert-power-users. What about those poor every-day users who
only have to create very simple content? Should we forget them and
only concentrate on adding new featuers to make every power-user
happy? If you are really trying this your primary interest is not
usability.

> Well - I guess with a bit of learning you will be able to create simple web
> pages with most of them, the problem seems to be that you are expecting to
> be able to handle a very complex system (and a CMS will always be) just out
> of the box without having to learn something - of course this won't work, as
> it won't work with any other piece of software.

No, that's not true. I do expect that I'll have to learn a lot to
setup the website exactly the way we want. We'll need our own skin and
I'm developing a single-sign-on mechanism for Trac. I know that I'll
have to learn the system. What I don't want to accept is that I'll
have to train our developers, so they can create a simple news item or
even a page.

> Well - the funny thing is, that I always talk with those newbies I've
> trained about exactly the things you are complaining about.
> I ask them if they can imagine there are people complaining about the BE
> editing being too complicated.
> Most of them simlpy can't understand, what should be so complicated if they
> were able to learn how to edit pages, content and other records within just
> a few hours.

I hope you're not seriously considering this a scientific analysis.

> Again: TYPO3 is not aimed to be a system that is used by end users without
> any knowledge.
> Usually it is setup by a professional who is responsible for training and
> coaching too.
> I don't know of any editor (speaking for our clients) who has not been able
> to handle all the necessary stuff after a maximum of one day of training.

Don't you see anything inherently wrong in having to train people?
It's okay for advanced tasks, but somehow it's ridiculous that you all
insist on the current level of complexity which requires training even
for simple tasks and at the same we're here to make TYPO3 easier to
use...

Does nobody apart from Tapio agree that simple every-day tasks should
be doable without training?

> Well - AFAIK the goal for 4.5 is to improve things but not to radically
> change or completely remove them. TYPO3 already got one of the best Backend
> concepts I have ever seen but there are still things you could do better.

Am I really asking for so radical changes?

> >> "Separating FE and BE users is a bad concept" -> How can you know if
> >> you didn't even get what they are for (Website Visitors vs. Website
> >> Editors)?
> >
> > * Visitors and editors are both *users*.
>
> Well - in fact visitors are clients, while editors are employees.
> Most companies I know of have got a main entrance where anybody is allowed
> to enter and another one that can be used by employees only. To make sure
> that normal clients don't enter areas they are not allowed to see I think
> it's a good idea to have completely different security systems.

Why can't you just put those users into different groups?

> > * What is the advantage of having them separate? I still haven't seen
> > a good reason.
>
> There are 3:
> Security, security and security.

This distinction is intended to have two different permission levels.
The same can be achieved with roles. Roles have the same level of
security, but you'd only need one single user concept.

> > * It is less flexible because as BE user can't login to the FE and FE
> > users can't be *easily* granted access to the BE (e.g.: because they
> > joined the development team).
>
> Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. There are several extensions that can
> login FE users with a corresponding BE user when necessary. A BE user
> doesn't have to login to the FE since he can always see previews of the
> pages he is creating while being logged in to the BE.

Well, your system prevents community-oriented sites for no good
reason. What if this were managed with permissions instead of two user
types? Also, it does make sense for BE users to browse the FE directly
without getting all those editing options. In a company you could have
restricted sections which can only be accessed by certain people. For
example, in an intranet site your login could give you access to
certain project pages. The BE is not suitable for browsing a website,
so you'll have to use the frontend.

> You don't need how-to's if you have been trained just a few hours by an
> experienced coach.
> Again: TYPO3 is not for end users without any experience and even if you try
> to "simplify" the BE they would still need professional help to setup their
> templates.

You don't understand. Setting up a template is not an every-day task
and the average editor does not need to do this. I'd like to simplify
the BE, so editors don't need hours of training. A brief intro "we
have pages, items like news posts or users which are in the list view,
and pages consist of multiple records of different types like text or
form". That should get you started.

> Create your "simplified view extension", install it - done.
> This has to be done just once, so maybe this is something for the 4.5
> roadmap. AFAIK this has already been discussed in this list and we agreed it
> could be helpful if someone could create this extension to make it easier
> for lazy admins to have the streamlined BE view.

That would help a lot.

> > We don't have professionals who can help. We're an open-source project
> > and we want to setup a new website with a powerful CMS (multi-lingual,
> > ACLs, etc.).
>
> So you have got 3 options:
> 1) Try to learn the necessary stuff and do it on your own (and maybe you can
> contribute your simplification-extensions)
> 2) Try to find some helpful people that will do the job for free
> 3) Wait until you find a better CMS or until someone created the necessary
> extension.

Well, Tapio seems to be working on a simplification extension and I
think I'll help him after we installed the system and discussed the
needed improvements, internally. But Tapio was very kind and already
implemented some of my suggested improvements. Thank you, BTW!

> >> Wenn man keine Ahnung hat: Einfach mal Fresse halten!
> >
> > Warum so aggressiv? :))
>
> Weil das meine Standardsignatur ist, mein Freund ;-)

Schon klar, ist aber trotzdem nicht grad nett. Mancher nimmts noch
persönlich. ;)

Bye,
Waldemar Kornewald