[TYPO3-ttnews] Switch to news2

[Robert Wildling]

Thank you, Jigal, for your extensive answer! I appreciate it.

I do grasp the quality of TYPO3's excellent extension system and that 
each and everyone should contribute in his/her own manner instead of 
complaining. (I actually have contributed to TYPO3 and ext developers 
and other OpenSource Projects in various ways, also financially. If you 
think I should list it here, just say so.)

But I'd still like to discuss the following situation - the subheader 
problem in TEXT and TEXTPIC, where it is not visible by default and 
enabling it is done "in just a few steps" (well... a-hem... Iwill not 
dig into that, not here, not later in this mail, but keep it in mind as 
solution 4).

To have the subheader visible is a topic that is discussed since quite 
some years, I mean to remember a discussion when there was TYPO3 3.8, 
but I am not sure.

Jo Hasenau just recently responded that a Google search pops up 1000 
"serious" entries. So lets say there are 500 people who are in need of 
the subheader. Not many compared to how many use TYPO3 and either don't 
need it or "unlock" it - that's undoubtely true. But THERE ARE 500 
people are out there, who encounter the same problem that has to be solved.

Fact is that a programmatical changein behaviour of the subheader is a 
core feature. So only core developers can bring in the changes. And even 
though this is one of those discussions that has already been led for 
many times (ever asked why it is discussed again and again??) - nothing 
changed. Well, actually something changed with v4.5: it was the reason 
for another bug (thanks to Jo Hasenau who sticked with me and finally 
found out that it was a bug, not a "feature").

Under the line this means: the subheader is additional work for some of 
the users AND the developers, who have to fix bugs.

But developers like to list counter arguments like:

- not many people need it and they would be happy about the additional 
screen estate that is won because of one less field;

- it is easily turned by adding some TS and pimping the ext_tables.php 
(Well... easy... and i found the solution via google, but not in a TYPO3 
documentation... please point me to the place that I might have missed...)

The following questions come to my mind:

First of all I do not understand where this argument "the subheader is 
not needed by most of the poeple" comes from, because the subheader was 
never visible by default, consequently a contrary discussion like "the 
subheader is useless, hide it gain some additional screen estate" never 
could take place. (But maybe I missed something here - any hints are 
welcome.)

Second - why keep a feature that at least 500 people need anyway, could 
just be not rendered when not used (like many other fields), would 
improve the workflow and the HTML standards and at the same time would 
reduce a possible bug scenario and - last but not least - could be 
hidden in an accordion thanks to ExtJS?

Third - another counter argument is: write an extension (there are 
already 2, not up to date, though). OK. I write my ext. Another one. 
Another Ext...
Aside from the fact that this is an ext that has the duty to enable a 
feature that is there anyway but "made configurable" and switched off 
for some CEs, there is, at the same time, the discussion about the 
number and quality of Extensions: too many, too bad quality, too similar 
etcetc (no man power to control quality). A vicious circle...

So no matter how much I would sponsor TYPO3 dev and write Ext: the 
suheader is a specific core dev topic where - even though at least 500 
people request it since years - nothing changes.

I really wonder why... I cannot do anything else but post the problem 
here and start a long ongoing discussion.

And you wonder why questions like these keep coming up. Well: maybe 
because there is more than just one person out there who considers a 
subheader an important workflow feature.

Tell me: if I pay you, would you enable it??? What's the priece, make me 
a reasonable offer that a regular web worker (actually I am a musician) 
can afford!

Scenarios of how this feature could be handled so each and everybody can 
have "his/her" own TYPO3:

- Accordion: put the subheader in an accordion and keep it closed at 
start (once it has content it should be shown thogh).

- in the Ext manager, insert a check box "Show subheader in TEXT and 
TEXTPIC", which is off by default (very much like e.g. an RTE or tt_news 
configuration)

- (the fancy solution which would respect hgroup in HTML5) "Add Header": 
a function that adds another header line, automatically stepping down in 
the hx-tag hierarchy (very much like the adding field functions in 
powermail). Additionally, there could be a check box like "wrap all 
headers in hgroup", which of course would only become visible once there 
are at least 2 headers.

I could also deliver a layout sketch to show where fields could go, if 
you wish.

So - this is my input: I am willing to pay and I have provided some 
ideas what a solution could look like and which I consider solutions 
that fit all of us.

I wonder which counter arguments will come up now.

Best Regards and with only the best intentions,
Robert



Am 17.09.11 23:54, schrieb Jigal van Hemert:
> Hi,
>
> On 17-9-2011 13:39, Robert Wildling wrote:
>> A topic that obviousely is of more people's interest! I'd like to add my
>> 2 cents here since I already had some discussion in the past without
>> having any impact.
>
> In this world and certainly the TYPO3 world discussing isn't the most
> important way to have any impact. The Nike slogun still applies here:
> "Just do it!".
> Before you start about not being a programmer, please read on, I'll
> discuss that later on.
>
>> Am 17.09.11 12:25, schrieb Jigal van Hemert:
>>
>>>> The people behind TYPO3 are making some big mistakes if you ask me:
>>> Since TYPO3 is a community product, "the people behind TYPO3" is also
>>> you!
>> This discussion is characterized by the very standard arguments coming
>> from the core developers. And "The People behing TYPO3 is also you" is
>> exactely one of them.
>
> It is maybe a standard argument, but then again it is a reply to the
> standard remark that "they should do this and that".
>
>> Not all people behing TYPO3 are programmers - actually I assume only a
>> small percentage is. But it is those people - the users - who make TYPO3
>> a wide spread and therefore famous CMS.
>
> And this is where being part of TYPO3 comes in for the non-programmers.
> TYPO3 is a community product, which means that the participation in the
> community is needed. Everyone who uses TYPO3 to earn their living does
> not pay a license fee to use it and get support. Support is provided by
> community members; they "pay" by offering their time to do this.
> If a user finds a problem it would be a nice thing to file a bug report
> and invest a bit of time to make it easy to reproduce. This way he/she
> contributes to making the product better.
> What else can you do if you're not a programmer?
> - documentation; a lot of complaints about missing documentation.
> Integrators, power users, etc. can easily write tutorials and such.
> Contact the documentation team to see how you can contribute
> - support; help other who ask questions
> - test bug reports; it is already a big help for developers if the
> situation to reproduce it becomes clear. Even lots of responses that it
> is needed to fix helps to see which issues have more priority than others
> - money/man power; you don't have to be a core team member to make a
> patch. it's enough to have a (free) account at typo3.org; agencies can
> ask one of their developers to make a patch. If you don't employ
> programmers you can hire a core team member or other developer (many
> work freelance or can be hired through the agency they work for)
> - design; we need designers for small and big things.
> - HTML/CSS; the designs need to work for all supported browser and for
> the never ending flow of new versions of browsers. Improve or fix
> styling issues can be easily done. Contact a developer (or core team
> member) to have him/her make a patch for you
> - other talents? If it is something useful, just get into contact with
> someone or ask in a newsgroup. If your catering company wants to supply
> something at an event that would also help!
>
> I personally have no money to spend on the TYPO3 project, but luckily I
> know a bit of PHP. In my spare time I make patches, test patches, write
> extensions, etc. I am not paid to develop the TYPO3 core by anyone; it's
> my way of donating to the project.
>
>> and this is really to be realized! - TYPO3 is a standard CMS that many
>> firms, agency etc demand when it comes to gathering offers for their web
>> presence. "It has to be TYPO3". (Why not Drupal?)
>
> Yes, I've heard that in for example Germany it's considered "cool" to
> have TYPO3 site. I don't see this in the Netherlands. Most offers are
> for "a CMS" and bids come in for various systems.
>
>> everybody donate to TYPO3 so that the features that are really necessary
>> will one day get implemented? I personally won't, because developers do
>> their thing and seem to absolutely no be willing to implement the
>> features that so many people need who made it famous - and who are now
>> depended on TYPO3.
>
> This is not really true. You are somehow still in the "them" and "they"
> mode. It is however often not enough to shout in some mailing list
> "TYPO3 should have this and that".
> If there is a somewhat big feature that is needed you can start to
> collect ideas, issues which are filed about it, document things, collect
> people. Which such a proposal you can find developers including a few
> core devs to form a project for this.
> It doesn't take a programmer to organize this...
>
>> Is is nothing else but the truth that every other major CMS has a news
>> module.
>
> I am not much into other 'major' CMSs, but I know that a number of them
> have a company behind them which also offers paid support and licenses.
> This changes the situation a bit. Paying customers will then be a
> directly driving force for new development.
> In the TYPO3 project it is a bit the same. New projects are almost
> always started because someone (or a company) finds it worth investing
> in. It can be an agency a developer works for which donates his/her
> time, it could be sponsoring or a freelance developer who decides to
> donate his/her time (or mostly a combination of them).
>
>  > The - again - often read "excuse" that "the core team does not
>> have the man power" ... is lame and boring.
>
> With all due respect to all 'users' of TYPO3. The complaint that "they
> should build this or that" is just as "lame and boring". Most of the
> time it comes from people who do very little for the community because
> "they are not a programmer".
>
>  > Why do you have the man power for a workspace module? Or a link
>  > validator? [...]
>
> See above.
>
>> This is what I dare to say - please proof me wrong:
>>
>> - A news system is needed by way more people than a workspace / link
>> validator and other stuff
>
> There are news systems available as extensions in TER. What's wrong with
> using them? The core doesn't come with a templating / mapping system,
> use automaketemplate, templavoilà, etc.! The core doesn't come with a
> system to handle files and meta data, use DAM. That's what extensions
> are for.
>
>> - A news system actually WAS ORIGINALLY SHIPPED with TYPO3 when Kaspar
>> brought it to the market. It was maybe not very rich of features as was
>> tt_news, but actually I do not understand why that respective news
>> module wasn't developed any further. Please explain, core team.
>
> That was before there was proper support for external extensions. See
> the common thing between tt_content, tt_news, tt_board, etc.? tt_content
> is absolutely necessary and part of the core, others are move to
> external extensions once that was supported by the core.
> Kaspar also started automaketemplate and templavoila (and many other
> extensions). He didn't include them in the core, but put them as
> optional extensions in the TER.
>
> I wonder why you want to have everything in the core? There is no
> guarantee that it will be developed the way you want. Extensions can be
> updated easily outside the development cycle of the core. This means
> that bugs can be fixed quicker.
>
> If an extension isn't developed further someone can take over
> development or start an alternative. Easy and flexible.
>
>> Well - make news a core EXT again! It is just about time I'd say!
>
> 1. Why? (see above)
> 2. Who will reserve time to support it? Will you hire someone for that?
> 3. Why?
>
>> The problem with all that discussion here is that we as users won't have
>> any chance either way, because the core team cooks its own soup - a vey
>> good soup, but not one for every day hunger. The users can bring in one
>> argument after the other, the other CMSs can evolve further and further
>> - TYPO3 just won't jump on the train.
>
> 1. Not true (see earlier)
> 2. Where have been living for the past years? Part of the core devs are
> developing TYPO3 version 5 based on a whole new framework (FLOW3). That
> won't be evolution, but a far greater step forward.
>
>> Meanwhile, actually, I think it is too late to incorporate a news
>> feature into the core.TYPO3 became too complex and - talking about
>> tt_news spaghetti code - how well is TYPO3 core code, if it is sooo
>> difficult and / or time consuming to implement a news feature?
>
> It isn't difficult to incorporate it. A system extension is almost the
> same as a third party extension. It's just that it requires maintenance
> after it has been developed. It means that less time can be spend on
> other parts of the core.
>
> The TYPO3 core code is mixed quality when it comes to coding style.
> That's a part of the efforts of the core team to refactor parts to make
> it possible to make unit tests for the code. This way future changes can
> more easily tested for changes in existing functionality.
>
> The workspaces/versioning extensions you talked about are an example of
> this. The functionality existed inside the core. You couldn't disable it
> (but only not use it) because some of the code in the core handled
> workspaces and versioning. If you didn't need or use it the code (and
> queries) were still executed.
> The workspaces project managed to remove that code from the actual core
> and put it in system extensions. The modules and preview were also
> rewritten to improve the functionality.
>
> You have read about the "BLE" project. Parts of the project will make
> the TYPO3 core conform to accessibility guidelines, make file management
> and digital asset management better, etc. This wasn't started by the
> core, but by a German government agency; a TYPO3 user.
>
>> Putting all the weight on Rupi who did a great job with tt_news does
>  > not seem fair to me at all!!!
>
> Who did that? Did you help him? Did you use tt_news without supporting
> Rupi? ...
>
> It's easy to complain about things and say that "they should" do this,
> "they should" rethink something. Think about what *you* can do to
> improve TYPO3 and how *you* are going achieve this. You'll be amazed
> what can be achieved and how much fun it can be. Way more satisfying
> than shouting and complaining...
>