[TYPO3-english] worried about 4.x (6.x)

[Kay Strobach]

Hello Tobias,

this can be a solution - in the future, currently it's not stable enough.

-> result of 2 minutes testing:
http://forge.typo3.org/issues/42005
http://forge.typo3.org/issues/42003

Is DCE able to handle nested groups of fields, like TV does?

Regards
Kay

Am 15.10.2012 09:52, schrieb Tobias Liegl:
> Hey Thomas, Kay,
> 
> I think you should have a look at the Dynamic Content Elements (DCE)
> Extension. This should be what you are searching for:
> 
> http://typo3.org/extensions/repository/view/dce
> 
> You can create new elements in the TYPO3 Backend and style them with
> Fluid (also in the Backend) - and without the need to use Templavoila.
> 
> Regards,
> Tobi
> 
> 
> Am 15.10.12 09:23, schrieb Kay Strobach:
>> Hello Thomas,
>>
>> do you think it would be enough to have some flexforms to define be
>> input with irre (like tv) and related templates in fluid?
>>
>> This way we could define:
>>
>> a) the flexform to get the input fields you need
>> b) one ore more rendering definitions for the data of the flexform
>>
>> addition to b) as fluid can render complex objects this could be a way
>> to go, as this would allow people to built "custom" fce's.
>>
>> Additionally this can be automated lateron, so that we do not need any
>> programming at all (similar to old extensionmanager) :D
>>
>> Regards
>> Kay
>>
>> Am 12.10.2012 15:17, schrieb Thomas Skierlo:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> spoiler ahead - apologies for the long text -- but it has to be this
>>> way. Don't read if you don't have the time.
>>>
>>> it's perfectly clear that any thread like this must get the emotions
>>> boiling, because one party is blaming the other for not taking the right
>>> decisions or doing a bad job. I am quite sure that all developers are
>>> working hard to improve the technology and to get TYPO3 to the next
>>> level. This list, as well as the product TYPO3, wouldn't exist, if many
>>> devoted people wouldn't have done a perfect job for many, many years --
>>> and are still doing today.
>>>
>>> To get an understanding of the integrator side please listen to my
>>> personal history of TYPO3 usage. I started to learn TYPO3 basics in
>>> 2008, building up a first, small, dev-site, using marker based
>>> templates. While I did that I noticed the limitations, and that there
>>> was another way to do things, which might be more powerful. After
>>> reading "Futuristic template building" I instantly knew that this was
>>> the way to go in future. Only TV seems to offer a way that one
>>> (sub)content element is aware of other content elements within the same
>>> data structure. You definitely need something like this to create FCEs
>>> like tabs or accordions or even grid-elements with one empty column,
>>> which must be handled differently to columns which aren't empty if the
>>> markup should be semantic. From there on I lived with the CON aspect of
>>> elements not being movable to other installations easily. Except this I
>>> never reached any limits with TV.
>>>
>>> At that time the first rumors came up about a new TYPO3, which should be
>>> developed in parallel to the existing 4.x branch and which should offer
>>> a migration path for older versions once finished. A Manifesto, which is
>>> much more than a letter of intent, was ensuring that I took the right
>>> decision with TYPO3, because I noticed that people did care about
>>> migration paths. At that very moment one alternative could have been to
>>> build up a perfectly new CMS, which no migration paths at all. People
>>> could have moved on with v. 4.x and than face a new learning curve for
>>> the new technology, once this is ready for production.
>>>
>>> At that time I definitely preferred the Manifesto way, because I felt
>>> that old-school ext.developers would stop further development and
>>> support for "old" extensions instantly if all work would be lost after a
>>> year or two. Even with the Manifesto still in place many of them stopped
>>> support for their old extensions, which directly leads to the current
>>> situation of TYPO3 being the best car in the world, with only a lack of
>>> 2 tires. Everybody involved is perfectly sure that it will be the best
>>> car on the marked again if someone would build the 2 tires missing. One
>>> of the two tires missing is a working replacement for TV. Now you might
>>> say: Hey, we gave you Extbase and Fluid, a Fluidtemplate object - and
>>> FCE-killers like gridelements oder FED/Flux from the community. At least
>>> I heard those words a couple of times, so I decided to stop my
>>> commercial work a couple of month ago and move on to the new templating.
>>>
>>> The FLUIDTEMPLATE object works as a direct replacement of the TV page
>>> template. Migration can be done withing a day without loosing anything.
>>> BON. Only thing which is missing is a decent way to get some constants
>>> into the Fluidtemplate, without defining them as variables. I asked for
>>> help on the lists last month, but never got a hint or a solution.
>>> Anyhow: Consider the page template done by means of Fluidtemplate. 100%
>>> TV replacement. And even fun to do.
>>>
>>> Next in line was the "Grid" which modern, semantic and responsive
>>> layouts like Twitter/Bootstrap need -- as well as all websites with a
>>> modern look and feel. So I installed the first so called FCE killer:
>>> Gridelements. With this extension one can build multicolumn content
>>> elements which do their job, but since every column is handled
>>> individually it seems not to be possible to manipulate content of one
>>> column depending on the content of another column. Tried to find help on
>>> the lists, but didn't get any. Tried to offer my help to one of the team
>>> members (I tried it only once by email), but didn't get any reaction.
>>> When it comes down to real grid-elements (=fixed multi-column
>>> structures), I would give the current Gridelements ext. a 80% as TV
>>> replacement, the BE view get's a 120%.
>>>
>>> My next try was to use Gridelements for a real FCE: An accordion. To
>>> build up the 2-tier markup you either have to visit the database
>>> multiple times (which is bad) and use another custom element (accordion
>>> content) instead of "any content element" (which isn't good either) OR
>>> you will not succeed. Sections are not supported, and sections are
>>> needed to build some advanced FCEs. Current trunk version would get a
>>> 20% as TV-FCE replacement from me. Spent 3 weeks with gridelements. Work
>>> still unfinished.
>>>
>>> Next was FED/Flux: Did like the possibilities, but didn't like the
>>> general concept from the very beginning. Wrapping private directives my
>>> IDE doesn't understand around Fluid directives my IDE doesn't know
>>> either, kind of parser for a parser. Started with the page template
>>> following the detailed explanations on the very good and helpful website
>>> -- but didn't succeed. No output at all except fatals. Maybe I've only
>>> installed a broken version from trunk? Don't know. Spent 3 or 4 days
>>> until I moved on to getting the job done by an own extbase extension. I
>>> never loved the idea of "writing an extension" just to get a custom
>>> content element -- in my naive thinking this basic scaffolding should be
>>> part of the CMS base functionality.
>>>
>>> Now, after spending a couple of month with extbase I still didn't
>>> succeed in building my own content elements. Had issues with caching and
>>> localization. Tried to analyze other, basic, extbase extensions from TER
>>> to get a way to handle BE modules, but didn't find many suitable for my
>>> learning. I am quite sure that it's possible to do the job with extbase,
>>> but once you got stuck the time needed to get a step further is much too
>>> long to still behave responsible.
>>>
>>> Another possible player might be "WEC content elements" way back from
>>> 2010. It addresses some of my current problems and it supports sections.
>>> But the project is not available on forge, has no issue tracker and
>>> seems not to be active any more. Didn't try it. Was getting too tired
>>> trying stuff.
>>>
>>> During the last days I took a first look at Typo3 Neos. My primary
>>> aspect of this first look was to find deeper similarities to extbase
>>> from the current 4.x versions. My first impression is that it might be
>>> much easier to start all over again without any extbase knowledge from
>>> 4.x, except DDD and MVC principles. At least Fluid looks similar.
>>> Awareness of content seems to be built-in. Very promising. But: Not
>>> ready for production. Can learn it today, but wouldn't use it for a
>>> while for real life projects. If I now move on with my current problems
>>> to Neos, I still have no solutions for them in the 4.x range. Besides
>>> that: Does anybody still believe in any later migration path? From 6 to
>>> Neos? I don't. Typoscript2 has not similarities with the current
>>> Typoscript and markers are (luckily) unknown. So we might be in that
>>> very situation which would have been the only alternative in the early
>>> times of the Manifesto.
>>>
>>> One thing seems to be pretty clear: There's no room for TV in the Neos
>>> world, so my motivation to get it to version 6.x wouldn't be too big,
>>> since it will be the final -- call it burial - level. On the other hand,
>>> there is no current alternative. At least I couldn't find any. Now
>>> substitute TV with any other important extension name, and you'll get
>>> closer to the real problem we are all facing today.
>>>
>>> Please don't be too harsh with people getting nervous about TYPO3.
>>> Better listen to their words by filtering out any emotions which might
>>> spoil the real meaning. Many people did invest a fortune to "understand"
>>> TYPO3. To learn, how it can be used to even build up an own business. If
>>> they feel, that their personal invest is taken at risk, they are getting
>>> nervous. Some will tell you about that feelings, others will not, just
>>> moving on to other products silently.
>>>
>>> I would have loved to participate much more in the community, either by
>>> member fees or personal labor. Just imagine my 4-month struggle with a
>>> working FCE replacement, which isn't been over yet. What a waste of
>>> time, one might think. Would love to give back my solution to the
>>> community, but couldn't find any. Would love to give my time to the
>>> community, but can't spare any because I have to keep up with new
>>> techniques.
>>>
>>> What I am missing is a TYPO3 team "above" the core team -- let's call
>>> them "Big Picture Ensurers", "Keepers of Usability" or "Tamers of
>>> Scientists" (especially the last task is often the most unpleasant, but
>>> mostly needed one). Is the current official version of TYPO3 INCLUDING
>>> mission critical community extensions still able to build up a modern,
>>> 2012 website? Is it still a suitable base for integrators, or has it
>>> moved to a state which can only be handled by developers? If so,
>>> wouldn't it be fair to share this very important information? And
>>> please, don't mention 4.5LTS. It is not really a long term solution.
>>> What might help with the problems might be another LTS commitment. At
>>> least this worked better than the Manifesto :-)
>>>
>>> I'm quite sure that extbase/Fluid is excellent. Probably FED/Flux is
>>> excellent too. Why not combine both into one, or even add Gridelements,
>>> for BE presentation? I didn't find "my" solution in any part of the
>>> active players group.
>>>
>>> Why don't give the outside world a break by slowing down any further
>>> development of new technology before the old one had a decent chance to
>>> keep up? At least until all basic scaffolding can be done with on-board
>>> tools or system extensions. Until that time only good old TemplaVoila
>>> seems to be able to give all the answers needed when it comes to
>>> templates.
>>>
>>> Can't imagine that I'm the only one with this FCE problem today. Where
>>> can I join any kind of FCE task force or at least get in touch with
>>> others struggling with the same beast right now?
>>>
>>> Would have loved to post my words outside an indexed world of search
>>> engines, but for people like me this list is the only place available
>>> for discussions of essential matter. I spent too much time with TYPO3 to
>>> have any defeatist motives -- which would take all my personal invest at
>>> the risk of total loss.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>> Thomas Skierlo
>>>
>>
>>
> 


-- 
http://www.kay-strobach.de - Open Source Rocks

TYPO3 .... inspiring people to share!
Get involved: http://typo3.org

Answer was useful - feel free to donate:
  -
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclick&hosted_button_id=KPM9NAV73VDF2
  - https://flattr.com/profile/kaystrobach