[Neos] I am sad

[Bastian Waidelich]

Carsten Bleicker wrote:

Hi Carsten,

> So, let me try to explain the reasons why i had stop my neos activities [...]

Thanks for your comprehensive feedback.
I am able to relate to your feelings for the most part, I also had times 
of frustration with Flow and Neos - and frankly still have in rare moments.

But I think that some of your complaints are based on invalid 
assumptions regarding the decision making process, so please allow me to 
respond straight:

In the Neos team we have agreed upon a set of values[1] and a rough 
roadmap for the coming versions[2] and of course we feel responsible for 
the health of the project. But as you know there is not company behind 
TYPO3, so there is no single "decision maker" and as a result priorities 
develop kind of evolutionary:
Mostly improvements only make it into the core if someone's personal 
itch[3] is strong enough to go through the process (and probably the 
same is true for most open source projects).

Speaking of the process.. We are aware of the fact that it is currently 
not easy for "outsiders" to contribute code and people are working hard 
on improving that.
But, personally, I doubt that even the best tools and workflows solve 
the issue completely. Flow is a complex piece of software with 
relatively high quality standards. And it will always require a certain 
degree of dedication to get a feature/fix into the core. Many forge 
issues or even reviews die due to the lack of feedback from the reporter.


Applying this to your concrete example:

> I give a shit on caching [...]

I had the same feeling (maybe not as harsh ;) but it turned out that 
lack of caching was a blocker for real world projects - and apparently 
more so than a poor built-in REST support.
Having said that, not everyone is working on the caching implementation 
and I agree that proper HTTP support is very important, so...:


> Currently there is NO further work done, either conceptional or practical,
> on http handling, wich is the root of any process the Flow Framework will process.

I really wonder what makes you think this way.
A lot of issues have been addressed with the "Improved REST support" 
work package[4], but there is a LOT of ongoing work on that matter[5] 
and especially the "HTTP components" feature[6] will solve most of the 
things you mentioned, plus make it easier to implement custom behavior.

But(!) - back to the process - most of these changes are lacking 
feedback by the author and/or potential reviewers.


> But i have the feeling, that there is no interest in what i am saying

I feel you. It was a *very* frustrating experience having to rebase the 
HTTP components changes again and again because they were outdated and 
had almost no reviews/feedback at all. But I know the same situation 
from "the other side" so in the meantime I understand that one has to 
promote ones changes and "fight" for them.
On the positive side: There is no difference between you or anyone of 
the "active contributors". Not even Robert can merge something without 
enough reviews and votes.

Anyways, regarding better HTTP support we discussed the topics you 
brought up in our last Technical Meeting[7] and I think we found some 
good approaches - what a pity you couldn't join the discussion..


Phew, I didn't mean to write that much.. To conclude: you brought up 
some valid points IMO and I agree that we need to get Neos closer to the 
"it just works" paradigm as fast as possible in order not to frustrate 
users.

Allow me one last remark though:
You wrote "The system is currently not calculatable for business usage. 
So i am sad to say, that i have to go back to cms." - I wonder how any 
of the mentioned issues are solved/easier to solve in TYPO3 CMS. Apart 
from the general stability maybe.


Best,


[1] http://neos.typo3.org/contribute/values.html
[2] http://neos.typo3.org/roadmap.html
[3] This is not to say that only "fun" features make it - community 
feedback, responsibility and also paid jobs can produce heavy itching ;)
[4] http://forge.typo3.org/issues/45088
[5] 
https://review.typo3.org/#/q/status:open+project:Packages/TYPO3.Flow+message:http,n,z
[6] https://review.typo3.org/#/q/topic:http-components,n,z
[7] http://wiki.typo3.org/TYPO3_Neos-DiscussionMeetings

-- 
Bastian Waidelich