[TYPO3] 5th column?

[Erik Svendsen]

Hello Tapio,

This discussion shouldn't be brought any further, it's a dead end. But I 
have to give som short comment.

> Erik Svendsen wrote:
> 
>> The history of the classic page module is table based design.
>> 
> Ok. I understand but what is really irritating in your, TemplaVoila
> folks is that you answer - "Yes, use TemplaVoila" in every question.

This isn't correct, and you know it.

> To the question '5ht column?', anwer 'Use TemplaVoila' is *wrong
> answer'.
> 
> When you ask '5ht column?' you apparently use the standard page
> module,¨which as as default four columns. 'Use TemplaVoila' is *not*
> an answer to the question 'Is is possible to add 5th column to the
> standard page module'. TemplaVoila doesn't have as default four
> column, which you add 5th colum - that's why the answer is not
> correct. *let people first answer to the original question*
> 
> You *can* say. 'As an *different alternative* to put to add to the
> standard page module 5th column, use TemplaVoila'.

The logical understanding of the question is; "he is using the classic page 
module". But neither of us could be certain. But I have no problem accepting 
"Use TemplaVoila" a "bad" advice. Not a wrong answer, because it's a possibility, 
but certainly not the best one. But why react this way, "it is complety another 
kind of solution - IMO too complex in most cases", who I find a bit "hostile".

It's a lot more friendly ways to give the answer. For instance. "Using the 
MTB metode of templating, and classic page module, solutions as tm_contentaccess 
and/or .... are in my opinion the best ways. Changing the templating metode 
to TV will take more time, because the need for learning the consept." 

And I would never adviced someone who was using the classic page module, 
change to TV in order to solve a problem who can be solved an easier way, 
and opposite. And I always advice people who start with TYPO3, do the MTB 
1 and then FTB. Then make your choice in which templating engine you would 
use.

>> But it still hasn't the same opportunity for nesting as TV.
>> 
> But for relative simple solution, where you don't need nesting, TV is
> unnecessary complex solution.

Will never agree. But ones logic isn't anothers.
 
>>> It *was* nicer than the old page module but not anymore.
>>> 
>> Don't agree, but I like iconbased UI with as little text as possible.
>> 
> The problem - as I have told - is that it doesn't support properly
> skinning because it is impossible to create good skin for TemplaVoila
> because the generated structure doesn't have enough classes to control
> the BE-layout. And building with XCLASSing different variations is
> painful.

Skinning is for me a "nice to have, but not neccessary feature".

>>> IMO slow process. When I do the HMLT-template, I know where to put
>>> content and that's it.
>>> 
>> What is slow with this process.
>> 
> using mapper tool

I'm using mostly predefined XML who i load, and then some small correction. 
About 10 - 15 minutes on a site with two different HTML-templates. I'm using 
nearly the same amount of time putting in the neccessary comments into the 
HTML file for automaketemplate.
 
> 
>>> no - but I feel that some people are hostile toward MTB - I have red
>>> that it should be soon dead - that *is* really *hostile* attitude
>>> 
>> Don't agree, this isn't hostile, people are only expressing their
>> view of what the future of TYPO3 is.
>> 
>> Someone want TV to be the only  templating engine
>> 
> What else this is than  hostile attitude toward MTB* - you want to
> stop using alternative solution for TV
> 
> , someone want the flexibility of three different ways

It's not hostile to have an opinion of what you think is the best solutions 
for the future. What's hostile is to not respect any other opinion, and not 
respect outcomes of a "democratic" process. To make an analogous example. 
If you don't like my design of a website and express in a normal way, i don't 
consider it hostile, but as your view, who I have the opportunity to reflect 
about or ignore.
 
>> (maybe four) of templating, and others want Smarty as engine. In
>> every software development, there will be discussions about what
>> considered as dead ends. Some see TV as the future, and classic page
>> module as a dead end
>> 
> It seems that you force people like me to change to use another CMS.
> In many situations classis page module is enough and easy solution.
> Why make thing with unnecessary complex way?

Haven't said anything about my opinion here. I'm only expressing the difference 
in views about the future people have. It's okay to disagree, but someway 
along the road someone has to take decisions who maybe someone want like. 
Before you, and even I started to use TYPO3 they changed the backend in a 
radical way. I think a lot of people didn't like it, but it was necessary. 
And if TYPO3 Association when developing version 5.0 comes to the conclusion 
that either TV or Classic page module isn't the right way, emerging technologies 
gives us new opportunities who are better, I have no problem with such a 
decission.
 
> IMO TemplaVoila has some complexities for end-users.

My end-users don't give any of these respons.
 
>> other want them side by side
>> 
> that's my wish
> 
>> and maybe others (like me) want them  to merge together
>> 
> quite difficult

Could be, but when the goal of version 5 of TYPO3 is refactoring the core, 
you have quite different opportunities in how to do things. For instance, 
one page module, flexible, who are not column based ot TV, but show the structure 
of the page regardless which templating method you are using, and with larger 
opportunity to customize through TS.
 
>> But if you see this as a hostile approach, it's your problem
>> 
> people, who want to stop me using approach, which I like, are my
> enemies and hostile
> 
>> And if you want to be a part of the community, you have to accept
>> others view without seeing them as hostile.
>> 
> in some situation I see them hostile

I don't think anyone want you to stop using classic page module and MTB. 
But I think a lot of people want you stop using expressions like this "Extremely 
annoyin feature in TemplaVoila is that is *very bad for skinning*", "I can't 
hate more this kind of designing. IMO TemplaVoila has too much borders.", 
and pushing tm_contentaccess like you have done. 

But when you see other people as hostile against you, and express it in the 
way you are doing, of course people are going to have a hostile attitude 
against you, or even worse, stop paying attention to you.

>> Then you should relearn the people who makes the template. Table
>> based design is a bad way to do webpages. Less accessebility, more
>> difficult to redesign and so on.
>> 
> I can't learn anybody - it is not my task. I get ready made
> HTML-template, which are often generate with Macromedia Dreamveawer.
> It is sometimse very painful to put id-attributes to and think how to
> handle the template, if it has many table layers.

Bullshit (pardon my not very polite expression), making websites is a teamwork 
between the customer and provider, where every person involved in the work 
has an obligation to give input which gives the best results now and in the 
future. And in teamwork it is an obligation to learn from others and learn 
others. And it's your obligation to tell others in "the team", if you find 
the way they are doing things not the best way.
 
WBR,
Erik Svendsen
www.linnearad.no