[Typo3-dev] the horror of different usertables

[Daniel Hinderink [TYPO3]]

Hi Elmar,
 
>> This has been suggested before with the same arrogance about the
>> "weakest point" argument. It turns out that this totally depended on the
> 
> I don't see any arrogance in having a personal point of view.
> 
> Any system that keeps redundant data at any point I will probably consider a
> weak system at that point even in 10 years.

It is very much a question of the scenario you will use TYPO3 in, if this
data will be redundant. Ignoring all other possible situations is what
Kasper called arrogant. SO your argument that the data is redundant is
actually proof that you do not consider other requirements.

>> view / needs of the person (typically coming from a "community system"
>> background. 
> 
> As soon as you administer a website with more than 1 person you have a
> community 
> system.

My current knowledge of definitions by vendors, market research companies
and scholars does not support your description of what a community system
is. Do you have any links to definitions that support your claim?

> As soon as you set up FE users you have a community system.

Again, please support your claim. I doubt your analysis and believe you
simplify this matter beyond meaning.

>From this 
> point of view I call 95% of typo3 a community system. I guess it is rather a
> great exeption, that there are two completely different groups of people on
> both 
> sides.

I believe quite the opposite is the case. The vast majority of websites
today are simply publishing information with no other functionality.
Registration is mostly just to collect user data and enables more
information resources.

Community functionality mostly means to enable users to communicate with
_each other_ directly. Like OpenBC, forums and so on.

> Even in your basic tutorial "Kom i gang" that is not the case. Am I
> right? It's long ago I read it.
> 
> That is the reason why this point is so important and will cause trouble as
> long 
> as is not solved. Directly in the center of the city you set up this big wall,
> just at a place where only the fewest people really need it. And a lot of
> people 
> get victim of disater while going the unnecessary long ways to get on the
> other 
> side.

Very colorful style. Not much content. What is your point?

>> 
>> Many people back then acknowledged that the separation was a *strong
>> point* and something they would never sacrifice for security reasons.
>> 
> 
> I have some doubt, if the keeping of redundant data really leads to more
> security. In fact it leaded to passwords that were not even encrypted in the
> FE 
> for example.
> 
> In the resulting overhead of syncronization, as you propose it, I personally
> rather see new doors of weakness. Syncronization isn't trivial and failures
> have 
> to be expected.
> 
>> Get used to it. It will not change. Make a plugin that syncronizes
>> automatically.
>> 
>> That would be...
>> 
>> 
>>>> the easy solution
>> 
>> 
>> ... if you had any idea about how much would have to change in the
>> system to make it work differently.
> 
> It realley would stimulate me to see, how to clean up the code that such a
> change wouldn't be so difficult but rather be done in one place. And with the
> additional feature to choice between one and two parallel user tables as
> goody.

As Kasper pointed out, this subject has been brought up before.
Unfortunately no one ever suggested a system that is in fact providing any
advantage over the one in existence to a cms situation as well as a
portal-like scenario.

I personally think it is very much worth rethinking this matter, but mails
like this thread do nothing creative to improve this situation.
 
> But as I already spend half of my time in doing non-commercial work, I decide
> only to provide some usefull extensions to typo3 for the moment.

May be someone else feels tempted to research this matter in more detail and
make some suggestions for another architecture. However, I do not believe
the synthesis of these two user domains count for so much and rather think
the stuff for greatness is in implementing ACL's, a fully implemented user
system in the backend (compared to the limited implementation at present)
and the final answer to the frontend user editing question.

Cheers

Daniel


> 
>> 
>> - kasper
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Elmar
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> Typo3-dev at lists.netfielders.de
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> 

-- 

Daniel Hinderink
TYPO3 - get.content.right
Innovation, Marketing, PR
http://www.typo3.com

-- 
If I wanted your website to make noise, I'd lick my finger and rub it across
the screen. Anonymous