[Typo3-dev] TYPO3 version 4.0.0?

[Daniel Hinderink [TYPO3]]

Good morning and welcome ot this fine thread :-)

 
>> OK, we can start building some message around these for the websites and the
>> press work. One problem is, that DBAL has no meaning to customers in terms
>> of readily available functionality, unless there are DB handlers for some of
>> the key RDBMS's around.
>> It is like a car without petrol on the same island. So we'll just have to
>> wait until we've got at least Oracle up and running.
> 
> Yes, but strictly, that is the "dbal" extension - and should that really
> be allowed to dictate a core version number?
> We can hope that the "dbal" extension is somewhat useful when 3.6.0 is
> finalized.

In fact, from a marketing perspective (which is not the only one important
to me) the division between extension and core do not matter much.
E.g. Last year we had a press release that mixed the publication of the
general office displayer with added core functionality.

So the idea of "official extensions" further down in this mail is very
natural to me. Also see the "Quality Development"-thread from last november
14.th, which fits nicely with such a plan. I'd love to make progress on
this!
 
>> What i am suggesting is to have a discussion on what v5 could and should be
>> about and then have a team of people making it independently of what the
>> main strand of development is doing. It's like a fork within the project
>> that merges back into the trunk at a later date.
> 
> I see.
> 
>> From my point of view I can't see how we can just "merge stuff back". It
> takes not more than an afternoon to change enough in CVS to make a merge
> with the mornings version more or less impossible. Certainly a "5.0.0"
> strand would be so radically different that all attempts to merge would
> be impossible. This is what my current (limited) CVS experience tells me
> + normal reason.
> 
> Maybe the Architecture list is better for your proposal. I would like to
> see how you envision this to happen in real life. As usual, I might
> understand this scenario differently than you intend me to. :-)

What i am suggesting is of course a playground and is in danger of creating
incompatible code. Other systems are pulling the trick by maintaining the
same API and creating a safe update procedure, while gaining freedom for
sometimes radical change within. But you are right, this is something for
the A-Team.
 
>> You agree on a. but have to admit that we don't have an awful lot of exiting
>> new stuff for the people that put their money into TYPO3 (yet). In terms of
>> b. we have just started speaking about wether we could communicate 3.6.0 as
>> such, or as 4.0. In my opinion we should be discussing wether we have enough
>> cool news to justify 4.0. And in my opinion it is close, but not cigar
>> enough (yet) for making such a jump.
> 
> My todo list is drying out, daniel. For a looong time there has not been
> added any "major" core feature to the list of things that should go into
> the core.
> DBAL, static publishing, versioning, LDAP, ... the list is short and
> soon empty. In other words; There will not BE many chances to make these
> jumps unless we understand this situation better!
> My vision of the core work in a year from now is that all these major
> features are there (or has been implemented as extensions using hooks
> made for them of course) and that core work is mainly about added hooks,
> APIs, fixing bugs.
> 
> When this is said it doesn't mean that there are no more things to ask
> TYPO3 for! But the point is that this is what *extensions* provide!
> 
> This leads to another question: Since the core will soon be enhanced
> only with boring APIs/hooks/bug-fixes maybe we should introduce
> "official extensions".
> 
> "Official extensions" are the cream of the crop. They are under quality
> control, they have dedicated development team, they have goals etc. The
> "Official extensions" will be presented inter-mixed with the TYPO3 core
> features and as such as a whole to the world around us.
> 
> As I see it the only way you can get marketing punch from a new TYPO3
> core version is to market it along with a synchroneous release of the
> "Official extensions".

I have nothing to say, but that i 100% support you on this. I find it
logical, a safe and realistic strategy and i believe to a certain extent,
that is already what we are doing.
That also means we have 2 pressing things on the agenda:
A. getting the extension review process up and running
B. making a more sophisticated EM and TER reflecting the hierarchy, which is
determined by the quality of reviewed extensions.

 
>> So why not clean up just a little bit and call the current code 3.6.0?
>> Is it really not mature enough? I think by constantly pushing it back in
>> time expectations rise, plus more and more features get added under the
>> hood. So you feel like it should really be more then 3.5 + 0.1.
>> Why not be quicker and expect less and release 3.6 now! and 3.7 in eight
>> weeks?
> 
> I see it the other way: What I'm currently doing is fixing bugs and
> small features which has been laying around for a long time. People are
> very happy about this and it is not rare to see a comment like "How can
> you release this-or-that version, not having fixed this severe bug?".
> Thats why this IS important.
> 
> As for 3.6 - 3.7 - 3.8 with low interval, that is exactly what I want.
> Just:

cool

> 
> 4.0.0 - 4.1.0 - 4.2.0 (since the jump to v. 4 IS justified in my
> opinion).

I think it is close, but let's ask Karsten how far he got?

>> I was not saying, we have to have a roadmap and stick to it no matter what.
>> I was saying, that we have to have one, _if_ we plan to follow some path
>> with milestones that make sense to developers and the market alike. And that
>> is what is giving real meaning to the positive message of sexy version
>> numbers.
>> 
>> Everything else means going with the flow and making the best out of the
>> results. That is a valid and justifyable option, with many convenient
>> side-effects, like not having to make and keep promises, being open to
>> inspiration, generally freedom in all sorts of flavours.
>> 
>> It is just not as powerful as creating a situation where true collaboration
>> is possible and everyone can prepare to be in his position on day x to do y.
> 
> I'm supporting more structured approaches to be used in the community.
> But I'm 100% clear about how I want (can!) to work myself and I'm not
> debating that.
> 
> I see the possibilities for roadmaps and structured development mainly
> in the project descriptions (which are... describing extensions to be
> made!) These are in yours/others hands and all of you have project
> management experience which I don't.

OK. I just wanted to illustrate the options, so it becomes more of a
conscious decision for everyone.
 
>> Obviously TYPO3 is also benefitting from the way things go and being very
>> much centered on your pace and practice. I honestly don't know if there is
>> an alternatve at this point either.
>> It is a complex choice and i don't promote radical change, i just have
>> strong doubts about the marketing power of making version jumps without
>> enough of the justification and preparation for such a step.
>> 
>> It's as simple as that. Ah and almost no fun in that one too :-)
> 
> 
> I think that at this point I would like to understand what you could
> envision for TYPO3 4.0.0, 4.5, 5.0 etc.

I of course would require quite some time to make a really thought-out list,
so please don't expect wonders. What i can offer is listing the things that
i perceive as the most pressing market requirements.

> As I said previously in this mail, there are not many "interesting" news
> about the core almost *by definition* that new interesting stuff must be
> made as extensions and if I'm right the few possible major things are
> implemented within a year.
> 
> So I hope you can understand that my imagination cannot see what else
> than the current 15 month work justify 4.0.

I understand that. It is just that from a marketing perspective, which you
yourself have been bringing up, by saying "it could send a signal to name
the version so and so", this is not the right reason. It is value to the
customer, not work time.
 
> So what could TYPO3 possibly include of features for:
> 
> TYPO3 ver. 4.0.0:
DBAL with handlers for major RDBMS's.
DAM first level?
> -
> -
> -
> 
> 
> TYPO3 ver. 4.1.0:
Versioning
> -
> -
> -
> -

TYPO3 ver. 4.2.0
A revamped EM and TER reflecting a division between reviewed and
non-reviewed (production and project) extensions, plus official extensions.

TYPO3 ver. 4.3.0
A revamped rights and users system, including LDAP integration (which we
actually have in the drawer)

TYPO3 ver. 4.4.0
An API for external applications (like Application Servers and Workflow
Engines) to call functions in TYPO3 via WebServices. Preferrably conforming
to WfMC Tool specifications.
> 
> 
> TYPO3 ver. 4.5.0:
Workflow, the project description way.
Semantic metadata thoughout the system
> -
> -
> -
> -
> 
> 
> TYPO3 ver. 5.0:
Architecture stuff
I would like ask René, Robert and Dan to get their minds revved up on this.

Up to 4.5.0 that is what i think are the pressing issues where TYPO3 is
lacking functionality, t
 
> I'm not holding you liable for the answers later. I just want to
> understand what you imagine will be main features then.
> When you have filled this in I will be interested in seeing how many of
> these features are actually core features and not extensions which are
> just made possible by a "boring" core hook (like DBAL basically is).

Again, that division is not so very important from a customer perspective,
or for anyone asking for functionality. They don't care where it comes from.
 
> And that might feed a comment from you on my idea of "Official
> extensions"?

I think we already have it, it just doesn't have that label.

Brave new world here we come,

Daniel


> 
> 
> - kasper
> 
> 
> 
> 
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-- 

Daniel Hinderink
TYPO3 - get.content.right
Innovation, Marketing, PR
http://www.typo3.com

--
Those who create are rare; those who cannot are numerous. Therefore, the
latter are stronger.
Coco  Chanel