[Typo3-dev] TYPO3 version 4.0.0?

[Kasper Skårhøj]

> 
> OK, we can start building some message around these for the websites and the
> press work. One problem is, that DBAL has no meaning to customers in terms
> of readily available functionality, unless there are DB handlers for some of
> the key RDBMS's around.
> It is like a car without petrol on the same island. So we'll just have to
> wait until we've got at least Oracle up and running.

Yes, but strictly, that is the "dbal" extension - and should that really
be allowed to dictate a core version number? 
We can hope that the "dbal" extension is somewhat useful when 3.6.0 is
finalized.


> What i am suggesting is to have a discussion on what v5 could and should be
> about and then have a team of people making it independently of what the
> main strand of development is doing. It's like a fork within the project
> that merges back into the trunk at a later date.

I see.

>From my point of view I can't see how we can just "merge stuff back". It
takes not more than an afternoon to change enough in CVS to make a merge
with the mornings version more or less impossible. Certainly a "5.0.0"
strand would be so radically different that all attempts to merge would
be impossible. This is what my current (limited) CVS experience tells me
+ normal reason.

Maybe the Architecture list is better for your proposal. I would like to
see how you envision this to happen in real life. As usual, I might
understand this scenario differently than you intend me to. :-)



> You agree on a. but have to admit that we don't have an awful lot of exiting
> new stuff for the people that put their money into TYPO3 (yet). In terms of
> b. we have just started speaking about wether we could communicate 3.6.0 as
> such, or as 4.0. In my opinion we should be discussing wether we have enough
> cool news to justify 4.0. And in my opinion it is close, but not cigar
> enough (yet) for making such a jump.

My todo list is drying out, daniel. For a looong time there has not been
added any "major" core feature to the list of things that should go into
the core.
DBAL, static publishing, versioning, LDAP, ... the list is short and
soon empty. In other words; There will not BE many chances to make these
jumps unless we understand this situation better!
My vision of the core work in a year from now is that all these major
features are there (or has been implemented as extensions using hooks
made for them of course) and that core work is mainly about added hooks,
APIs, fixing bugs.

When this is said it doesn't mean that there are no more things to ask
TYPO3 for! But the point is that this is what *extensions* provide! 

This leads to another question: Since the core will soon be enhanced
only with boring APIs/hooks/bug-fixes maybe we should introduce
"official extensions".

"Official extensions" are the cream of the crop. They are under quality
control, they have dedicated development team, they have goals etc. The
"Official extensions" will be presented inter-mixed with the TYPO3 core
features and as such as a whole to the world around us. 

As I see it the only way you can get marketing punch from a new TYPO3
core version is to market it along with a synchroneous release of the
"Official extensions".


> 
> So why not clean up just a little bit and call the current code 3.6.0?
> Is it really not mature enough? I think by constantly pushing it back in
> time expectations rise, plus more and more features get added under the
> hood. So you feel like it should really be more then 3.5 + 0.1.
> Why not be quicker and expect less and release 3.6 now! and 3.7 in eight
> weeks?

I see it the other way: What I'm currently doing is fixing bugs and
small features which has been laying around for a long time. People are
very happy about this and it is not rare to see a comment like "How can
you release this-or-that version, not having fixed this severe bug?".
Thats why this IS important.

As for 3.6 - 3.7 - 3.8 with low interval, that is exactly what I want.
Just:

4.0.0 - 4.1.0 - 4.2.0 (since the jump to v. 4 IS justified in my
opinion).



> > We just increment version numbers when we *have implemented* stuff and
> > see that a certain jump is justified. This seems like no problem for me,
> > but if you want to predict/define what any given future version contains
> > it is of course (due to the spontaneous nature of development).

(A lot of keyboard miles run here...)


> I was not saying, we have to have a roadmap and stick to it no matter what.
> I was saying, that we have to have one, _if_ we plan to follow some path
> with milestones that make sense to developers and the market alike. And that
> is what is giving real meaning to the positive message of sexy version
> numbers.
> 
> Everything else means going with the flow and making the best out of the
> results. That is a valid and justifyable option, with many convenient
> side-effects, like not having to make and keep promises, being open to
> inspiration, generally freedom in all sorts of flavours.
> 
> It is just not as powerful as creating a situation where true collaboration
> is possible and everyone can prepare to be in his position on day x to do y.

I'm supporting more structured approaches to be used in the community.
But I'm 100% clear about how I want (can!) to work myself and I'm not
debating that.

I see the possibilities for roadmaps and structured development mainly
in the project descriptions (which are... describing extensions to be
made!) These are in yours/others hands and all of you have project
management experience which I don't.

> 
> Obviously TYPO3 is also benefitting from the way things go and being very
> much centered on your pace and practice. I honestly don't know if there is
> an alternatve at this point either.
> It is a complex choice and i don't promote radical change, i just have
> strong doubts about the marketing power of making version jumps without
> enough of the justification and preparation for such a step.
> 
> It's as simple as that. Ah and almost no fun in that one too :-)


I think that at this point I would like to understand what you could
envision for TYPO3 4.0.0, 4.5, 5.0 etc.

As I said previously in this mail, there are not many "interesting" news
about the core almost *by definition* that new interesting stuff must be
made as extensions and if I'm right the few possible major things are
implemented within a year.

So I hope you can understand that my imagination cannot see what else
than the current 15 month work justify 4.0.


So what could TYPO3 possibly include of features for:

TYPO3 ver. 4.0.0:
-
-
-
-


TYPO3 ver. 4.1.0:
-
-
-
-


TYPO3 ver. 4.5.0:
-
-
-
-


TYPO3 ver. 5.0:
-
-
-
-



I'm not holding you liable for the answers later. I just want to
understand what you imagine will be main features then.
When you have filled this in I will be interested in seeing how many of
these features are actually core features and not extensions which are
just made possible by a "boring" core hook (like DBAL basically is).

And that might feed a comment from you on my idea of "Official
extensions"?


- kasper