[Typo3-dev] Re: The future of typo3

["Kasper Skårhøj"]

> I 
>strongly believe that the content-publishing-paradigm is dead

I strongly believe that user interaction is dead. I browse websites, thats all that makes sense most of the time. Thats what big corporations seems to think as well. I never use community sites like those based on PHPnuke anyways.

>Please enlighten me -why is it such a good thing to separate the backend 
>and the frontend?

TYPO3 has won recognition as a web-publishing system. Having a separate backend allows it to do other things - eg. work as a totally backend-only system. In fact the whole frontend page is encapsulated in the "cms" extension and therefore is strictly not a part of the core.
I wouldn't like having 50000 users in my user table and only three of them being backend users anyways.
The backend is a convenient "system" for all kinds of administrative purposes - the frontend is a website, totally different. Well, I'm not going to argue this - to me it is just obvious that each part has its right place. I do agree that some sharing of code would be nice for some parts - like editing for frontend users. 

>More extensions aggravates the problems that I am addressing. All the 
>code needed for front end editing is already there. It just needs to be 
>*enabled* for front end editing. 

Its easier and safer to just re-write a frontend version. Two versions with separate access schemes is not too much redundancy.


All the "bridges" between front end and 
>back end users (front end user - to back end user mapping, backend login 
>in front end and so on) are symptoms of poor design. 

Right.

Mixing frontend and backend users are symptoms of a poor design as well, a design I wouldn't use if I had a very important website to run. 
I once studied electronics. There you have various devices to transmit signals with "hermitical separation". Why? To make sure that the risk of error is very very low under extreme unforeseem conditions.
The same here: Having two user tables in design provides a safer system.

>Se my comments above regarding symptoms of poor design.

Michael, why not present us your perfect design? And then, lets see if it stands for scrutiny better than TYPO3 or if it only expresses what you happen to think it best?


>good, a mere reconfiguration should make it possible to emulate a wiki. 

Is it OK to make software which cannot emulate a wiki?
Strange idea.



>In my opinion: that is because that you have worked out a way of using 
>typo3 already, and youøre not able to see how inconsistent the parts 
>that you have gotten accustomed to avoid really are.

Based on my general impression of you from earlier mails (which could be badly mistaken of course) you are also filled up with preconceived ideas from other technologies which makes your opinions just as subjective as ours. So why are you more right?
I see you as a guy who will have a hard time with TYPO3 because you have to fight these preconceived ideas for a time and you will hate TYPO3 for not fitting the way you think. But there are others who get it more quickly, probably because they think the same way or otherwise already work in the paradigms TYPO3 does. 
We have had people like you around before. Thats just fine with us. But we also recognize that TYPO3 doesn't fit everyone (and we don't intend it to do) and if so, please don't waste your time here. It doesn't help you, it doesn't help us.


>And away goes the famous separation of code and layout.

Hardcode HTML is beautiful. I have just implemented a big project in france using this method and we have been very lucky doing so in order to get the job done in time and in the best way with best performance.

Could it be that you have been accustomed to this paradigm of separation, never questioning it?


>>Additionally some new documentations taking care of the fundamental
>>concepts of TYPO3 development and a description of the API are on the
>>way. What is still needed, are people helping us with these tasks.
>>Anybody who's interested in offering help should have a look at the
>>Teams and Projects page (http://typo3.org/1448.0.html)
>>
>I still think that several documentation projects are lacking. Se my 
>original posting.

Great.

Will you spend time helping us?


>>We just started a reviewing proces of the existing extensions. The idea
>>behind it is to spread the knowledge of how efficiently program TYPO3
>>extensions and ensure a certain quality standard.
>>
>I think it is more appropiate to give such a document as "Getting 
>started with typo3" an overhaul.


Strange comment: That is the MOST RECENT document and it is all the other documentation that is REALLY POOR. If "Getting Started" is really that bad, there is no hope for the rest.

>The principles behind the extensions are really good. 


At last, something good...

>What I would like 
>to see is transferring more functionality into extensions and cutting 
>down on the core functionality.

You should have seen TYPO3 v. 3, then you would appreciate what we have got not.
But have you actually REALLY got into what is core and what is not?

>>
>Fair enough. But the back end should be an application written on 
>exactly the same foundation and with the the same tools as everything in 
>the front end. My point is not that I don't like the backend. What I 
>don't like is that it is being treated as a completely separate 
>application in every respect all the way down to the very core of typo3. 
>Thats not nice.

Oh, thats very nice. I just LOVE it!


>Typo3 has clearly come a long way. The challenge now is real maturity, 
>which requires a more explicit, formalised architecture and more 
>documentation.

That is exactly what the focus has been for a long time - but we are not there yet. Who would think that it would take so long...


>> And lets say that everyone agrees with you and suddently nobody wants 
>> to use TYPO3; I would still be happy with my creation since I works 
>> for me and actually that was where it all started anyways; To create a 
>> tool to help myself. I'm sorry for sharing that with the world. What a 
>> sin.
>>
>Please don't be offended. I am writing this to help. It may sound harsh, 
>but I _will_ respect arguments against the standpoints that I have 
>presented. It is clear that typo3 is your darling (a darling that need 
>not be killed!). But I think that too much "I know whats best because I 
>just know" causes degeneration of the system. Its a good idea to start 
>discussing why it is so great and what can be done (even) better.

I am to some degree offended. I admit that. I realized after the other mail that it was primarily because I agreed with you on many points but had just gone through a process with myself where I had to accept that the best thing would be to focus on what IS DONE instead of wishing to trash everything and do it all over - which is something living only in our imagination still. I chose what is most wise I believe and what carries most responsibility with it for the thousands of users of TYPO3 at the moment: To focus on what we DO HAVE. But all your suggestions just reminds me of my lack of time and of the dream which had to be put aside for the sake of reality. 
That is also why I have kindly directed you to the team leaders of various project with your suggestions and also implying that real help only comes with a donation of time/initiative or money.  Its easy to just mention what should be done differently.

Anyways, I actually do think that "I know whats best because I just know" - but I also listen to arguments. Some of your rather detailed suggestions to me has not been bad - I just knew this was not going to be (with me at least) and so I didn't spend too much time on a detailed conversion on them. But I did listen.

>>
>I have been busy making money and running companies.
>

I had that option as well back in time. But decided to do TYPO3 instead.

>>
>Its hard to defend taking part in something if it is based on principles 
>that you disagree with.

Fair enough...

>
>> So why bother giving us advice?
>>
>Because I think that it was the best thing that I *could* do for the 
>project.

ok, but still, why bother? If all the principles are wrong? Principles are the core of systems, most of them not to change.



- kasper
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>>>    In God I trust - others pay cash!     <<<
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